From hildebrd@cs.swarthmore.edu Wed Dec 6 20:05:17 1989 From: hildebrd@cs.swarthmore.edu (Jeff Hildebrand) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: A heartfelt thanks. Date: 6 Dec 89 05:25:53 GMT Reply-To: hildebrd@cs.swarthmore.edu (Hildebaby) Distribution: na Organization: CS Dept., Swarthmore College, PA Status: RO Jeff walked back into Callahan's looking happier than he did the last time he showed up. Having walked up to the bar, he slapped down a single and asked for a root beer. In a few minutes he approached the line. First looking bashfully down at the floor, then glancing around, he began to speak quietly. "It's only been a couple days since I first appeared, but I've gotten several responses that have helped enormously. I've been going through mood swings like crazy this semester and I posted at a low moment. As I've discovered, the best thing to do in those cases is to just talk. And it's so nice to find people there who will listen. "To all of you who have responded, thank you. You've helped me and I've enjoyed meeting you. (Jilaria, did my response ever make it?) I'm sticking around. Therefore, I propose a toast. "To those who know how to listen! I hope I can be counted among your number." And the glass joins the other fragments in fireplace. Feeling warm, he removes his sweatshirt, then grins. The others in the Place notice that he's wearing a T-shirt with the name "Hildebaby" emblazoned on the back. Ordering another root beer from Mike, he downs it and quickly returns to the line. "Well, I've noticed that there is at least one other Jeff around here, and probably more. What you see on my back is a name I aquired 6 years ago and use to this day. Feel free to use it." "To nicknames!" -Jeff -- /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ Jeff Hildebrand Swarthmore College, Swarthmore PA 19081 JDH92@campus.swarthmore.edu (prefered) or hildebrd@cs.swarthmore.edu Would you trust a man who | "First things first, but not From kdo@lucid.com Thu Dec 7 09:44:41 1989 From: kdo@lucid.com (Ken Olum) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Families Date: 6 Dec 89 22:49:51 GMT Reply-To: kdo@boston-harbor.UUCP (Ken Olum) Organization: Lucid East, Sharon MA Status: RO In article <8235@ttidca.TTI.COM> hollombe@ttidcb.tti.com (The Polymath) writes: >A toast: > > To friends and families of all kinds. > Amen! >And this is one of my smaller families.... > >Anyway, enough from me for now. Anyone else have some good times to >share? It's good to see someone using "family" to mean something more than just your blood relatives, like 'em or hate 'em. There's a lot of different kinds of families in the world, and you can be born into them or adopted or wake up and find yourself in one, or even go out looking to form one. As for me, I've lived in a house with a group of friends for about 10 years, and I wouldn't give it up for anything. It's been different houses, and different people, but it's always been people that I'm close to and they've seemed like family to me. I think I'd go crazy if I didn't have housemates, because I'd be lonely all the time. Even just having other people around, doing their own thing, makes all the difference over being alone. It's not all roses, and sometimes it's pretty damn awful when people in the house don't get along with each other any more. For some reason it always comes down to one person out of a group that isn't getting along with the rest, and that person always feels like an outcast, and everybody is miserable. This has happened before and I'm sure it will happy again and again, but it's worth it to have things work so well the rest of the time. Anyway, it's this arrangement that I base a lot of my strength on and these are the people that I go to for support when I need it, and when I want someone to show off something to or someone to do something with. I think that a lot of my feelings before about not needing the one special person as much have to do with this base. It's also made me wonder whether maybe the one special person could be two or three special people instead, but that's another story and I see Eddie walking over here mumbling something about preaching, so I think I'd better sit down now. Mike sure runs a fine Place here, though, doesn't he? Ken From ejalbert@phoenix.Princeton.EDU Thu Dec 7 09:44:49 1989 From: ejalbert@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Edmund Jason Albert) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Interconnectedness Date: 7 Dec 89 02:49:54 GMT Reply-To: ejalbert@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Edmund Jason Albert) Distribution: usa Organization: Princeton University, NJ Status: O In article <11960@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> jmdoyle@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Jennifer Mary Doyle) writes: > >And hello to you over in the corner, discussing politics and education, and >maybe geology. Welcome. >From the recesses emerges a figure dressed in jeans and a flannel shirt. He is covered in dust, and from his belt hang both a compass and a strange type of hammer, which looks well-used. Around his neck is a lanyard from which hangs a magnifying lens. He turns to Jen and says "Preferably geology, if there is anyone to discuss it with." Those who look to where he has risen from notice a dusty hat placed on the table, with a pocketknife next to it. He moves towards the counter and asks Mike for water. He then turns and begins to speak. "Jen invited me here, and it's a nice place to be. Never seen a place where people care about each other so much. But in any case a toast is in order, as I've decided to emerge. "I've listened to the conversation on soulmates, and count myself fortunate: I've got one, and even though she's 700 miles away, we still specially understand each other. And I can't complain in the girlfriend department either; I've had two or three and I wouldn't trade those moments for anything. "My reason for being here is friendship. I have a problem making friends. I've only had a few in my life, almost all, for some strange reason, female. You see, my parents divorced when I was sick, and although my mother remarried two years later (as did my dad), I was basically raised by her. I'm an only child, so I never had the experience of getting along with siblings. We, until I was in middle school, never lived in an area where there were kids: either we were on the wrong side of a busy street, or we lived in a town of 6,000 people and I went to school 45 minutes away. Consequently, I never had any kids over -- even just for an afternoon, and never went to there houses. Thus, I never developed the normal social skills. "The problem was exacerbated by an overprotective mother, but I won't go into that now. High school was bearable, because classes and extracurricular activities were structured. But aside from my senior year I couldn't be said to have any social life, not even going out to movies with friends. "College involves living with people, something I have no experience doing. I met some people here through an introduction by an advisor, but I don't do well on my own because I come across as too eager or brusk. In reality, though I am very talkative, I am also very shy. "Anyway, these people were nice, or so I thought. But when we came back >from break this year, on the second day of classes they held a meeting with my priest to which I unbeknownst was led. There they said I was self-centered and that I was too 'clingy'. They provided numerous examples, yet they had a misconception. They wanted me to get there hints when I had no experience doing so (sorry, the above there should be their). Also introduced was this conception of personal space, something I really did not understand, since I have always wanted people around. "Another problem broached was the nature of friendship. They claimed that I placed expectations on them that were unreasonable and that they couldn't live with. I was always taught that friends were trustworthy and honest and loyal, and failed to see how one could be friends otherwise. "I could go on, but I have too long, so now a toast: TO FRIENDSHIP, MAY ALL OURS BE TRUE. " He turns over to Jen, smiles grimly, then sits down. Jason Albert Princeton University From cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU Thu Dec 7 09:44:52 1989 From: cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU (Chris Phoenix) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Interconnectedness Date: 7 Dec 89 06:58:35 GMT Reply-To: cphoenix@csli.stanford.edu (Chris Phoenix) Distribution: usa Organization: Center for the Study of Language and Information, Stanford U. Status: O This started as a posting, then became a letter, and now it's a posting again. It's *very* long. The first half is the story of my social development. The second half is social rules that I've learned for dealing with social settings where masks are required. If you don't want to read all of it, just hit 'j' or 'n'. In article <12007@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> you write: >"My reason for being here is friendship. I have a problem making >friends. I've only had a few in my life, almost all, for some strange >reason, female. Same here... also, my female friends are often the kind that other women hate/are jealous of on sight... just because they're too competent/beautiful/ intense. Probably because that's the only kind that I don't scare away... You mentioned an overprotective mother. I don't want to get Freudian here, but mine was overprotective too, and I didn't really have a "manly" role model. I suspect that's why so many of my friends are female--I just never learned to like drinking, or sports, or cars, or ... I think I have more common ground with women than with most men. >although my mother remarried two years later (as did my dad), I was >basically raised by her. That's pretty much what I was talking about... >I'm an only child, so I never had the >experience of getting along with siblings. I have a younger brother. He was *very* hard to get along with--everyone in my family had trouble dealing with him. He's gotten better now, but I've often wished I'd been an only child. The experience I got dealing with him didn't help my social skills at all. > We, until I was in middle >school, never lived in an area where there were kids: Again, very similar. We lived in a small city till I was in 3rd grade, and the kids there weren't nice. Then we moved to the country, where there were maybe 3 my age within a square mile. The middle and high schools were in another town, so that made it even worse. I never had any kids over either. And I skipped kindergarten. But even in first grade, I didn't have the social skills I needed. Part of the problem was that my parents had taught me to read etc before I started school, so that turned a lot of the kids off. The problem got worse year by year, until by the time I got to high school I was totally dysfunctional socially--had basically no friends, and honestly didn't care. Another part of the problem, I think, was that I was very innocent about sexual things in grade school (overprotective mother again) and so kids could always embarrass me easily. Once they learned this, I spent a lot of my time being embarrassed. >"College involves living with people, something I have no experience >doing. I met some people here through an introduction by an advisor, >but I don't do well on my own because I come across as too eager or >brusk. In reality, though I am very talkative, I am also very shy. College... here's where the fun starts. Having skipped 3 grades by that time, including 12th, I was just starting to get interested in girls when I went to college. I think that's what finally brought me out of my shell--that, and being away from my brother. My first year, I went to a special program designed for kids who skipped 12th grade. It was just what I needed. (The program was at Clarkson, not Stanford--I transferred here after that year, as a sophomore.) We were regular freshmen academically, but the "schoolies" lived in separate housing and had extra administrative attention. Everyone was expected to be immature, and they had extra counselors for us who did a pretty good job of eliminating mental cruelty. Also, I was even luckier than most of the others--I had a single, so I didn't have to deal with a roommate. When I went to college, I knew I had a chance to make a fresh start, to relate to a whole new group of people who didn't know how socially screwed up I was. So I decided to start watching them, and learning how to behave. It worked pretty well, and I learned fast. By the end of the year, I think I was as adept socially as an average schoolie. I had made several good friends as well. > self-centered ... 'clingy' ... personal space ... expectations I ran into the same thing. I didn't realize it until just this year, which sort of surprised me since I'd been at Stanford interacting socially for 2 years. It was rather a shock when I realized it, but it's true: Lots of people don't want to be friends, and lots of them are actually afraid of being friends. The "personal space" thing was the hardest for me to deal with, because it's totally outside my experience. I was really depressed for a lot of this quarter, and finally decided that it simply wasn't worth dealing with undergrads. I don't reject friendship, but I'm not trying to gain friends among them anymore. I've just had too many senseless rejections, scared too many people, wasted too much time, and had to learn too many rules. I found the rules really hard to deal with, but for a while I tried to learn them--even getting counseling from my friends on how to be more socially acceptable. Then one day I realized that even around friends, I couldn't stop using these rules and playing these games. That's the point at which I decided that it wasn't worth it. I'm still learning the rules, but I'm not practicing them anymore. I've replaced them with one very simple one: If I don't know someone, he probably doesn't want to talk to me. This is actually a very successful rule. If I try to be friends with people, I scare them just like you do. If I just say "hi" and be polite, but don't try to be friendly to them, they start thinking I'm a nice guy and wanting to be friends with me. I don't know why this works. One of the rules I learned was to "mute" my emotions and my reactions--this was supposed to make me "cool". But if I don't try to be friendly, I guess that "mutes" me by about the right amount. I couldn't do this if I didn't have other people to be with. In my case, it's grad students plus the few real friends I made during the last 2 years. Grads tend to not get as freaked out by me, and to be more open and require less personal space. > I was always taught that friends were trustworthy >and honest and loyal, and failed to see how one could be friends >otherwise. That's what I thought too. One of the most depressing things I had to realize this quarter was that most of the people I thought were my friends were really only just acting friendly. This is something that comes naturally to most people, or else they've practiced it a lot--I suspect the latter. Anyway, people can be very friendly as long as it doesn't cost them anything. I know it's dishonest, but that's the way they are. Then when I try to invoke any friendship, to invade their personal space in any way, I find out that they aren't really my friend. And there's so many ways to invade personal space... ask for a favor, start to tell them about any problem no matter how trivial, even sit down too close to them (I'm told 2 feet is "way too close"--that means you can't even fit 3 people on a sofa!). Anyway, the only advice I can give is to try to find some people who have outgrown this stage of being totally a social construct and of being scared by any contact. There's not too much you can do with "friends" like yours except ignore them. Maybe I'm being too harsh on them, but your posting sounded like they didn't even think they should be expected to be truthful with you. That is not a friend. You should probably keep practicing your social skills, but be careful not to use them too often--it's a very bad habit to get into. And remember that anyone you meet, especially undergrads, is probably putting up as much of a social mask as you are. Don't assume friendship, because it's usually not there. If you want to make friends worth having, just be yourself, and whoever you don't scare off is probably a worthwhile friend. Be polite--for example, if you swear a lot or something, try cutting that down--but don't put up a mask. But if you want to be popular... Here are some of the more useful rules I've learned... if you practice these, you should be able to be "socially correct" in most settings, although you're probably less likely to gain any true friends from people you practice these on. Learn and obey the personal space rules. Watch other people, ask a few of them, find out what is a violation of personal space--and don't ever do it, even accidentally. Touching people, especially women, is a violation. Offering backrubs, for example, is one of the scariest things you can do, and even if they accept--and enjoy it--they will probably become scared of you later. Learn how to make smalltalk. Never talk about unpleasant subjects. Sports are good, if you know enough about them (I don't.) Learn how to close a conversation. Be very careful when walking with people. If they think you're following them, they'll freak. Even if you're in the middle of a sentence, if your paths split, don't walk with them for a while more--even if you have nothing to do! I'm told you should just slow down, and close off the conversation quickly. Learn how to say "Hi, how's it going?" "Pretty good" "That's good". The proper way is very bright and cheerful, with lots of inflection in your voice. Don't say the words like they have any significance at all. I think I actually get better results when I don't meet people's eyes while I'm saying it. The best way to learn this is to watch other people. Also, don't assume if someone says "Hi" that they want to talk. Just say "Hi" with a very big smile, as though you're delighted to see them--but you don't care about interacting with them. I know it's sick, but that's the way to do it. With women, be very careful they don't feel threatened. Don't do anything to make them think you might be hitting on them. Violating personal space is often seen this way. Don't be obviously trying to make friends. This could be why they say you're too "clingy". It's OK to want to meet people, but not OK to want to be friends with them. Friends are an invasion of personal space. This one is pretty important: Mute your emotions. I mentioned this above too. Emotion is also an invasion of personal space, if it's too intense. Whatever you do, don't be too intense. People find that very hard to deal with. Just picture all your reactions painted in light pastel colors. Don't offer too much help. I don't know if you do this, but I had problems with it. If you offer help to someone you don't know, they'll wonder what your game is. It won't occur to them that you might actually like helping people... Be careful even if you think you've gotten past the social mask. It will be up again soon, and people will be very scared of you if you cause them to remove it temporarily, or even if you see them without it. The backrub thing is a good example. If you're giving a backrub to a casual acquaintance, don't give a really good one--you might break down the mask, and then when it comes up again they'll avoid you from then on. Also, if someone is in a vulnerable position, such as being really tired or upset, be careful how you pry. You might be able to get past the mask, and that might feel like a good thing. But then the next day, they'll remember that you can get past their mask, and they'll stay away from you. This doesn't always happen--if someone is upset, they may be grateful for someone to talk to--but don't always assume that getting past masks is a good thing. Keep your interactions on a superficial level. People don't like having to think about social interactions. Don't expect anything important to happen, and definitely don't try to make something important happen. This point is closely tied to the next one. Above all, don't do anything extraordinary. Don't do anything that a "socially correct" person wouldn't do. It's very unnerving, because if you do something unexpected they might be put in a situation that their social mask can't handle. This is a disturbing prospect, and people will stay away >from you if they think you might do that to them. There are some areas where you can get away with more than in others. For example, dressing wierd is OK, at least at Stanford. It won't turn people off, because while it may be unusual they know how to deal with it. But if you start to talk about a serious subject, they don't know where the conversation might go, and so they don't feel safe talking about it. Around here, no one talks about their troubles, so doing that is extraordinary. If you'll tell strangers about your problems, who knows what you might say??? And last, don't be too quick to drop the rules. If you think you've made a friend, fine... but if they became your friend while seeing this mask, they'll probably freak if you drop it all at once. A couple of warnings on the above rules: They're only useful in certain cases. In my experience, most undergrads follow them and expect you to too. But *don't* use them on your friends, and be *very* careful not to get so used to them that you can't drop them entirely. The personal-space rules are the ones I find the hardest to get rid of--I almost flinch when a woman touches me at a party, because I know if I touch a woman at a party, even accidentally, she'll probably get freaked. I am not happy about this at all. If your mask isn't stuck on already, don't let it become that way. You will find a few people who you don't need a mask for, and it's very important to be able to take it off when you can. Also, I hear that when you get out into the real world they aren't used nearly as much, so you'll probably want to drop most of them then. If anyone's gotten this far, I'd really appreciate comments on the rules-- Do you think they're correct? Do you have any others to add? Do you think they should ever be used? >"I could go on, but I have too long ... If you think you went on too long... >TO FRIENDSHIP, MAY ALL OURS BE TRUE. Amen! -- Chris Phoenix | A harp is a nude piano. cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU | "More input! More input!" Life is the only game in which the object of the game is to learn the rules. Disclaimer: I want a kinder, gentler net with a thousand pints of lite. From t-phils@microsoft.UUCP Thu Dec 7 23:35:33 1989 From: t-phils@microsoft.UUCP (the Eternal Stranger) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: SF puns Date: 7 Dec 89 22:30:48 GMT Reply-To: t-phils@microsoft.UUCP (the Eternal Stranger) Organization: Microsoft Corp., Redmond WA Status: RO Gary Lewandowski (TA of Doom) writes: |stadnism@clutx.clarkson.edu writes: |>Jennifer writes: |>>"We really should write these down. Let's call a Clarke." she said, as a huge |>> Brin spread across her face. "It Kurtz me to see these wonderful puns lost |>> forever." |>> Jen-- |>I agree with Jen; we oughta Stasheff few of these away for future reFrenz... |Write them on a Card, and Niven let them get away. "Wright - that's it. I'm not lett-Ing you lot get away with Hogan this stream any more. I've kept quiet too long already, Morris the pity, and it's Bean a Longyear and I need to blow off some steam. I never thought that I'Drake up some of these myself - I thought I was above Aldiss stuff - but here I go, just like every other Thom, Dick and Harrison in the place. (I hope you don't think I'm being too Forward about it...) So much for silence, here I am Tolkien my head off - and I'll have you know, I'm a man who Brooks no interruptions. (You think this is bad? There's Farmer left where these came from...) Well - there's other folks I have to talk to, so Furnow I'll have to be leaVinge," he says, Edding for the bar... -- _________________________________________________________ | Phil Stracchino t-phils@microsoft.UUCP | | "What about me, it isn't fair | | I've had enough, now I want my share | | Can't you see, I want to live..." | | - Moving Pictures | | "If life was simple, everyone would be good at it." | | - The Eternal Stranger | \_________________________________________________________/ From t-phils@microsoft.UUCP Thu Dec 7 23:35:42 1989 From: t-phils@microsoft.UUCP (the Eternal Stranger) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Come on in! Date: 8 Dec 89 03:14:51 GMT Reply-To: t-phils@microsoft.UUCP (the Eternal Stranger) Organization: Microsoft Corp., Redmond WA Summary: #define LURK off...? Status: RO During a pause in the conversation in the Place, Alaric looks up with an abstracted expression, as though listening to some faint, far-off sound. After a few seconds, he smiles and glances around the table at the others sitting there. "If you'll excuse me for a moment?" he says quietly, with a quick nod of acknowledgement to Jilara, Magyk and the tabbifli, then gets up and walks over to the door. (Incidentally, he is no longer wearing the two-handed sword; it now leans against the wall behind the table.) Opening the door part-way, he looks intently out into the darkness and blowing snow. "I know you're out there, Ellen," he calls; "Come on in and join us! It's much warmer in here...." He almost closes the door, enough to keep the warmth in, but leaves it an inch or two ajar. (Fortunately, the wind has shifted, and the door is now on the lee side of the building, so no snow blows in.) Walking over to the bar, he pulls out a silver coin and tosses it to Mike. The coin, like all the others, metamorphoses into a dollar bill moments after leaving his hand. (This creates rather an odd effect, since it flies in a high ballistic arc as a tossed coin normally would, then transforms itself into paper and flutters almost straight down into Mike's waiting hand. Oddly enough, his hand is in precisely the right place to catch the falling bill, instead of being positioned to intercept the coin....) "Mike," he says, "when the young lady who's lurking outside wondering whether to come in makes up her mind and comes in, kindly inform her that her first one's on me...." With that, he returns to his table and resumes the conversation, idly scratching the tabbifli's back as he speaks. -- _________________________________________________________ | Phil Stracchino t-phils@microsoft.UUCP | | "What about me, it isn't fair | | I've had enough, now I want my share | | Can't you see, I want to live..." | | - Moving Pictures | | "If life was simple, everyone would be good at it." | | - The Eternal Stranger | \_________________________________________________________/ From t-phils@microsoft.UUCP Thu Dec 7 23:35:48 1989 From: t-phils@microsoft.UUCP (the Eternal Stranger) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Forces, Vast and Mighty Date: 8 Dec 89 03:27:20 GMT Reply-To: t-phils@microsoft.UUCP (the Eternal Stranger) Organization: Microsoft Corp., Redmond WA Keywords: Argh Status: O James Webster Birdsall writes: | The door opens and a thoroughly gloomy looking scarecrow in a green | jacket enters. He heads straight for the bar, forgets the name of what | he wants, and is forced to describe it to Mike. Having collected his | whatever-it-is of vodka and OJ, he steps up to the line and stands there | for a minute. .... | "I guess I'm going to have to toast Answers. May everyone find the | one they need." | | He throws the glass in without further ceremony and retreats to an | empty table in a corner, hoping that maybe somebody will come over and | talk. But, as he looks around, he realizes that most everybody is | sitting in groups of friends and that it's unlikely that anybody is | going to break off having a good time to talk to a source of such | intense gloom and bitterness. So he just sits and watches from the | shadows... "I'll second that. To answers, and finding them!" Alaric tosses his glass into the fireplace from where he sits, with a deceptively lazy-looking overhand snap. The glass whistles faintly as it streaks into the fireplace, dropping no more than a few inches in its flight, and explodes into a thousand glittering shards. He stands and walks up to the bar for a refill, handing Mike another of his metamorphosing silver coins, then turns and walks back to the table with what looks a lot like a Tequila Sunrise except for the faint wisps of steam rising from its surface. Part-way there, at his point of closest approach to the corner table (by a slightly indirect route, by the way) he turns towards the scarecrow, half-raises the steaming glass, and gestures with his other hand towards the table where he has been sitting with Jilara, Magyk and the tabbifli. "Care to join us?" he asks, then continues on his way back to his chair. [ok, so I see from later messages I'm a little late... I guess my net gateway was down. Again.] -- _________________________________________________________ | Phil Stracchino t-phils@microsoft.UUCP | | "What about me, it isn't fair | | I've had enough, now I want my share | | Can't you see, I want to live..." | | - Moving Pictures | | "If life was simple, everyone would be good at it." | | - The Eternal Stranger | \_________________________________________________________/