From so-luru@stekt.oulu.fi Sat Dec 9 04:27:33 1989 From: so-luru@stekt.oulu.fi (Ari Husa OH8NUP) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: .. a short incident.. Date: 8 Dec 89 19:26:55 GMT Distribution: alt Organization: United Lusers Against SO Prefix Status: O Back in the dark corner of the tavern, a stranger suddenly rises. He doesn't look familiar to anybody, nor does anybody greet him. A glass is his hand shakes a little, being half full of port, while he lifts it up, as to greet the other people now starting to look at him. The move is not thoroughly executed, though, but rather abruptly stopped, and the glass is put back on the table. Still standing up, the stranger opens his mouth.. one can almost hear the unspoken words he sswallows back. Looking shy, ashamed and puzzled, he sits down again, grabs his port and starts finishing up it quickly. He is young, in fact he almost looks like a kid. It would be impossible to guess his age, though. You know, the type that still must look like thirty on his fiftieth birtday . He is rather heavily built, and it makes a sharp contrast with his young face and short, strawberry blond hair, which looks like it had never seen a comb or a hair. Somehow you get the feeling he's seen a lot, in spite of his looks. The glass is empty. The young man gets up, puts his hat on, and walks to the door. To the bartender he says: "A friend of mine recommended the place.. I am new here" - and looks back to the people, who seemingly don't pay any attention to him, as to expect an unspoken goodbye. "Good day. I might be back", he mutters and leaves, wondering if this really would be place for warmth and frienship, and whether he ever actually dares to come back. The people sitting at the table closest to the door can hear his deep sigh while he closes the door behind him. The life goes on as usual. Luru From t-phils@microsoft.UUCP Sat Dec 9 04:27:34 1989 From: t-phils@microsoft.UUCP (the Eternal Stranger) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Soulmates and exiles Date: 8 Dec 89 18:50:28 GMT Reply-To: t-phils@microsoft.UUCP (the Eternal Stranger) Organization: Microsoft Corp., Redmond WA Status: O Jeffrey Young writes: | | "We are but souls drifting in the void: it is inevitable that some | of us wil eventually run into each other." | | --a quote by an author whose name slips my mind... Wouldn't have been Richard Bach, by any chance? | "In my case, I might be in trouble. I would sacrifice myself for | someone who truly needed me, rather than see her suffer where I could | not help. Those whom I hold while they cry, however, I hold myself | away from, asking nothing in return for the comfort I give." "That is the sign of true nobility... but what would one expect from a Unicorn?" | "Perhaps some of you don't believe in soulmates.. I do.." "I could almost envy you your faith, then." Alaric's voice is almost emotionless, his eyes hard and remote. No expression shows on his face. "I long ago ceased to believe in the existence of soulmates... or at the least, in the existence of a soulmate for myself. To have a soulmate, I would say that it is first necessary to have a soul - and that I question...." | "You are blue, Unicorn.. the Blue of clear, cloudless days where | everything seems like it's going right and nothing could go wrong.. | and the Blue of despair and lonliness." "The hottest, purest flame is blue... and so is the coldest ice." -- _______________________________________________________________________ | Phil Stracchino : t-phils@microsoft.UUCP; uunet!microsoft!t-phils | |-----------------------------------------------------------------------| | `What about me, it isn't fair / I've had enough, now I want my share | | Can't you see, I want to live...' - Moving Pictures | | `What would touch you deeper, tears that fall from eyes that only cry | | Would it touch you deeper than eyes that know why...' - Rush | | `If life was simple, everyone would be good at it.' | | - The Eternal Stranger | |_______________________________________________________________________| From austin@bucsf.bu.edu Sat Dec 9 04:27:34 1989 From: austin@bucsf.bu.edu (Austin Ziegler) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Masks Date: 8 Dec 89 21:39:02 GMT Distribution: alt Organization: Boston University College of Engineering Keywords: Masks are nothing but illusions. Summary: Illusions are nothing but lies. Status: O Magyk stands after several have spoken: Taldin, Subrata, the Shadow, GreyWolf, the Phoenix, and even Thomas Covenant. "My friends, I have heard all you have to say about masks, and while I do not deny that they exist, I deny that I use them for any reason whatsoever. Before you interject that I, Magyk, am a mask for Austin, let me explain to you briefly who Magyk is in relation to Austin. "Magyk is a superset of Austin. He is Austin and everything Austin would like to be. He is a mouth through which Austin can speak because the third person is far easier to write. But behind Magyk is a very strong personality called Austin. There, in truth, *is* no Magyk beyond alt.callahans and, to a minor point, IRC. "I, like Taldin, am quite comfortable with revealing myself to people. I however, feel I have *nothing to hide*. I will not use a mask because I know the ultimate consequences of using such a 'tool.' I have never found the need for a mask. If a person does not like the Austin that they see, then they have a problem. I treat it like that because it is not my duty to please everyone...or necessarily anyone but myself. "I do not consider myself self-centered, but I will not conform to the heirarchy if it goes against what I believe. I find that I get along with most people, and most people find me, at the very minimum, tolerable. Further, I tend to break the masks of others more often and more successfully, I believe. I have no idea what is the cause of that, nor how one could emulate that, but I do know that it seems to me that *most* people want to get out of their masks, but don't want to be the first to do so, because they are not sure who will stay protected and attack the unprotected. "I guess what I'm trying to say here is that if at all possible, don't even consider the mask at all. I have not been the most socially successful person in the world, but I do find that I've had better friends because I've presented the real me every time. "It is that honesty which scares some people away, but once a person gets to know me, they tend to respect me for that honesty, and also tend to open up a little bit more around me because they *know* I can be trusted. "The pain will be greater initially, and it probably won't help a romantic life at all (it has not helped mine yet) but I have made some really good friends by just presenting myself, and being there when people needed me." Magyk sits down again. He puts a dollar bill in his hand and it teleports over into Mike's waiting hand. Mike puts a glass of sparkling white grape juice on the bar, and it flashes over to Magyk's hand. "You know, people do know how stupid these rules are. In fact, most of them really *do* want to remove the masks, but they either do not know how to remove them, or they want to see someone who has successfully removed the mask and get help from that person," he quaffs the grapejuice. "To friendship. *REAL* friendship, where a person can cry on a friends shoulder. And to those people in need of help, God give us the strength to go out and help them." He disappears from his chair and reappears standing at the line. He throws the glass into the fireplace. Just before it hits the fireplace, it turns into a white dove and flies out a window, into the winter night. On the fireplace, a wreath appears, and various other Christmas decorations appear all over the Place. Ponsettias on every table, and even a few sprigs of mistletoe. Fast Eddie's piano starts playing some Christmas tunes, and Fast Eddie very quickly catches up. Magyk feels many eyes on him but he looks quite bewildered. "It's not my doing..." Magyk (austin@bucsf.bu.edu,@bucsb.bu.edu,engc8vc@buacca.bu.edu) 700 Commonwealth Box 2094, Boston, MA 02215 "Hark how the bells/sweet silver bells/all seem to say/throw cares away/Christmas is here/bringing good cheer/Merry, merry, merry Christmas." --Hark how the bells, attribution unknown (please fill me in) From dtrindle@jarthur.Claremont.EDU Sat Dec 9 04:27:35 1989 From: dtrindle@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (D. J. Trindle) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Yes, but... Date: 8 Dec 89 22:53:12 GMT Reply-To: dtrindle@jarthur.UUCP (D. J. Trindle) Distribution: usa Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA Summary: Spider sez- Status: O Erm. If I may quote for a bit... I don't want you to get a picture of Callahan's Place as an agonized, Alcoholics Anonymous type of group-encounter session, with Callahan as some sort of salty psychoanalyst-father-figure in the foreground. Hell, many's the toast provokes roars of laughter, or a shouted chorus of agreement, or a unanimous blitz of glasses from all over the room when the night is particularly spirited. Callahan is tolerant of rannygazoo; he maintains that a bar should be "merry," so long as no bones are broken unintentionally. I mind the time he helped Spud Flynn set fire to a seat cushion to settle a bet on which way the draft was coming. This is a passage from the very first Callahan's story, "The Guy With The Eyes." Sad to say, I haven't smelled much seat cushion smoke around the Place recently. Remember both halves of the line, "Shared pain is lessened; shared joy increased." So to that end, [SMACK! goes the dollar bill on the bar] Mike, gimme a Coke. [Chugging noises] On Tuesday the fifth, my girlfriend and I celebrated our second year of going out. We may have had occasional rough patches, may still run across one every so often, but we've come through it all, so--to relationships! -D.J.T. From lemay@lorelei.Sun.COM Sat Dec 9 04:27:35 1989 From: lemay@lorelei.Sun.COM (Laura Lemay) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Banana. No, thank you. Date: 9 Dec 89 01:57:52 GMT Reply-To: lemay@sun.UUCP (Laura Lemay) Organization: Sun Microsystems, Mountain View Status: O An entrance was what it would best be called. Many people came into Callahans in mysterious ways; she was not one of them. She did not change shape, or glow like a beacon, or do anything out of the ordinary as she entered the bar. She just walked. But oh, what a walk. All eyes were on her as she closed the oaken door behind her. She was alone, but did not appear in the slightest bit uncomfortable. Looking around at the crowds looking at her, she walked to the bar. Her coat was black, and fell nearly to her ankles. With a motion she removed it and placed it on the chair beside her. Beneath the coat, her clothes were also black, from the boots on her feet to the scarf around her neck. In sharp contrast to the darkness of her clothes, however, was her hair. It was red, bright red, cropped off short in the back and falling in waves over her forehead. Absently she pushed a hand through it; it fell back into place as if she had never touched it. She reached into a pocket, and as everyone continued to watch, emptied four pennies, a set of keys, a tattered California Driver's License and a dollar bill onto the bar. Mike took the dollar bill. "What'll it be?" he asked, breaking the silence. "Shot of stoli?" she asked, pocketing the pennies, the keys and the license once again. Mike raised one eyebrow quizzically. It was not exactly the most feminine of drinks. "What?" the woman asked, looking up at him. Mike shurgged and reached for the bottle, as the woman turned to face the crowds. There was a silence as she seemed to be sizing up those in the crowd -- human and otherwise. She leaned back against the bar, propping up her elbows. "My name is Laura," she started. "It was the name I was born with, and the name I go by. I have no persona." She turned around at the sound of Mike putting the bottle of vodka back into the rack, took the shot glass, and looked carefully down at it. "A renaissance man told me I might like it here," she continued, rolling the glass lightly between her fingers. "But in all truth, I wasn't sure I would be welcome." "Rumor has it that Callahan's is the place to make instant friends, the place to come air your troubles and have an infinite amount of shoulders to lean on and ears to bend. This is a wonderful thing." The full glass was still in her hand; some were wondering if she was ever going to drink the contents. "The problem is....well, I don't have any problems at the moment. "But wait -- before you dismiss me as hopelessly arrogant, let me explain. It took me a long time to be comfortable with my life and comfortable with myself. I have done a lot of soul-searching, and I like what I have come up with. Yes, I am self-confident. I am cocky. And yes, I am a bit arrogant. But I am a good listener, and I am sympathetic. That is why I decided to come in here after all." Again, her hand went absently through her hair, making many aware that this was more a habit than anything else. She looked up from the shot glass again, and grinned. "Besides, I hear the pun contests in here are lethal. Can't resist that." A few faces broke into smiles, and the woman seemed to relax. "OK then," she said, her hand in her hair once again. "To acceptance." Finally, she downed the vodka, and flung the glass into the fireplace, where it landed with a crash. Still smiling, she joined the conversations in progress around her. -Laura Lemay lemay@eng.sun.com Redhead. Drummer. Geek. From hollombe@ttidca.TTI.COM Sat Dec 9 04:27:36 1989 From: hollombe@ttidca.TTI.COM (The Polymath) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Colorful Characters Date: 8 Dec 89 19:45:57 GMT Reply-To: hollombe@ttidca.tti.com (The Polymath) Distribution: alt Organization: Citicorp/TTI, Santa Monica Status: O Jilara listens to the Polymath's circus story. "Hmm, makes me think of a fellow who sometimes hangs out in a historic saloon where a couple of my shadows sometimes tend bar... Around there, he's called High Card Johnny, but I first met him when he was running a fencing salle. He must be family, because you always run across your "relatives" again and again. Picture the sort of person who would run a fencing studio, a magician, and old carney. Gray hair, pointed moustache and beard, high cheekbones, and an eternal flamboyant flair. That's John de Cesar. A stunt man, too. He used to do a great street brawl up at Renaissance Faire, in the old days, impressive to watch. This man can swashbuckle! And to do stunt fencing, you have to be good at the real thing, at least his sort. Couple years ago, we talked about a strange guy he'd done a bit with, who decided he was Errol Flynn and ended up with an epee embedded in him... I had breakfast with him two years ago, and he told me about when he and Anton la Vey used to be carneys together, before Anton got into his satanic schtick. Currently, he sits around in the historic saloon in San Juan Bautista, showing tourists why there is no such thing as a "game of chance." I could say "fleecing tourists," but he doesn't play for money. If he did, it would be scary. Even knowing what he's doing, I don't catch the ploy most of the time. I know the card-count games that are rigged. But when he works a deck, I sometimes find myself wondering just how... Everyone needs someone like John, just to remind them real people are sometimes much more interesting than fictional characters." She looks around the room. "As a matter of fact, I think he'd be right at home at Callahan's. Who knows, maybe someday he'll find the place!" --- ---Jilara the Exile (I hope.) "Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." A. Brilliant (alternate identity may be jane@fsdcupt.csd.mot.com---don't you love computers with identity crises?) [Posted for Jilara by:] -- The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, hollombe@ttidca.tti.com) Illegitimis non Citicorp(+)TTI Carborundum 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. (213) 450-9111, x2483 Santa Monica, CA 90405 {csun | philabs | psivax}!ttidca!hollombe From ez000691@pollux Sat Dec 9 04:27:37 1989 From: ez000691@pollux Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Riddle Night! Date: 9 Dec 89 03:28:49 GMT Reply-To: ez000691@pollux (Shadow) Followup-To: alt.callahans Organization: University of California, Davis Keywords: not long-winded Summary: And about time, too... Status: O This evening, when you enter the Place, Shadow is there before you, grinning quietly to himself in a corner. He has placed a chalkboard on the bar, which proclaims, "Riddle Night!" "You know the rules," he says, repressing a chortle. "Don't shout out the answers (i.e. post), just email them to me at . I'll try to go by date sent, rather than date received, so that I know who I need to buy drinks for. I know the winner is supposed to do the next riddle night, but since no one's come up with anything yet, I firgured the early bird award was worth *something*." He waves a fistful of singles back and forth gleefully. "Who's first?" I. Honest, skinny; scrys Duck; movie, either Glade, umm...; split, disembark Seat, ancient; Prefect Short nightgown; regret, slim Can; Peter, spy; Rhett quotes II. Myself, ill; like, ogle, relocate Dent; ocean; scribe Agent, honey; Cock, offspring Get gas; anthem start; tiller Bear, tra; thousand; lima Rock, presently; free; joker III. Tap; wise man, change a tire Chops, joint; vehicles, atop Firestarter, Smothers art; deck it Top off; daybreak, a color Doris, tape; permit, she, he Horse feed, tumbled, be obligated; carpenter, awfully IV. Accompany; season, workers Chicken, pumpernickle; tenpins, creek Too, sketched; urge, sheep, countenance Check; pismire, sole Publishes; curve, climb, we Make fast, buddy; belonging to; one, waters down Shadow -- >From the only slightly twisted mind of... "In case we decide to ez000691@pollux.ucdavis.edu surrender to them, Number One." From jmdoyle@phoenix.Princeton.EDU Sat Dec 9 04:27:37 1989 From: jmdoyle@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Jennifer Doyle) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Interconnectedness Date: 8 Dec 89 19:45:09 GMT Reply-To: jmdoyle@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Jennifer Mary Doyle) Distribution: usa Organization: or, conversely, Chaos: Status: O Here's something to make those of you talking about this think. Heaven knows I have since I've been hearing this thread. Those people you've been talking about? The ones who you have to be "socially correct" for? The ones who aren't worth a damn? I'm one of them. In <12007@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> ejalbert@phoenix.Princeton.EDU writes: >"Anyway, these people were nice, or so I thought. But when we came back >from break this year, on the second day of classes they held a meeting >with my priest to which I unbeknownst was led. There they said I was >self-centered and that I was too 'clingy'. They provided numerous >examples, yet they had a misconception. They wanted me to get there >hints when I had no experience doing so (sorry, the above there should >be their). Also introduced was this conception of personal space, >something I really did not understand, since I have always wanted people >around. I was at that meeting, and took part in it, and said and felt many of the things Jason mentions. I felt that it was the right thing, that I didn't want to give up on Jason and simply ignore him. I wanted to be friends with him. What I didn't see is that maybe *I* needed to change, too. There were later one-on-one conversations (2 with me) and those were better. Now I see that the fault lies not in the stars, but in me. A mutual friend pointed out, when I mentioned I was still feeling uncomfortable "Jen, he *has* changed. We've all been kidding ourselves." And I realized that he was right. Does that mean that now I want to be close friends, that things are all better? No. I'm still changing, too, and I don't know how things will end up. What I do know, and what I can see, is that we're all changing, Jason, and I, and the rest of the group. I guess the reason I'm saying all this, is because I want to make you realize that I'm not evil, none of us are. I never set out to hurt anyone, just the opposite. But I have a hard time saying "You make me uncomfortable" or "Please don't touch me" or "I need to talk about our relationship with one another". It is easier to maintain the status quo than go out on a limb, and that's what I tend to do. I never really felt I was being dishonest, or bad, I felt I was doing the right thing. I'm beginning to think that honesty doesn't precede friendship, and friendship doesn't precede honesty, but that when you've found one, you've found the other. Maybe the rules Chris proposed aren't entirely bad. Think about what we do in real life, with the people who are true friends. The rules sit in our subconscious, and we generally don't follow them. But we know when to apply them in certain situations, we know when being close will make someone uncomfortable, and when it will be the best thing for them. I think we all follow these rules in some sense. If we didn't, we would do exactly as we wanted all the time, and we would have no friends. An extreme of touching someone when they don't want to be touched is assault, or worse. We need to find a happy medium. Mike, all this talking has made me thirsty. The usual, please. "To friendship! May all our friends be as close as we need them to be." Jen -- "Make mine a root beer, Mike. Thanks. To communication! " ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jennifer Doyle // Princeton '92 // jmdoyle@phoenix.princeton.edu Disclaimer: I am a student, I represent the future. From cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU Sat Dec 9 04:27:38 1989 From: cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU (Chris Phoenix) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Banana. No, thank you. Date: 9 Dec 89 04:43:10 GMT Reply-To: cphoenix@csli.stanford.edu (Chris Phoenix) Organization: Center for the Study of Language and Information, Stanford U. Status: O In article <129010@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> lemay@sun.UUCP (Laura Lemay) writes: >"A renaissance man told me I might like it here," she continued, >rolling the glass lightly between her fingers. "But in all truth, I >wasn't sure I would be welcome." > >"Rumor has it that Callahan's is the place to make instant friends, the >place to come air your troubles and have an infinite amount of >shoulders to lean on and ears to bend. This is a wonderful thing." >The full glass was still in her hand; some were wondering if she was >ever going to drink the contents. "The problem is....well, I don't >have any problems at the moment. Well, I think you've made at least one friend already. I like the way you write about yourself. And yes, you'll be welcome here, even if you don't have a problem. Matter of fact, it's nice to meet someone who doesn't have any problems. I don't think it's arrogant to say so. There's certainly nothing wrong with being self-confident. There isn't enough self-confidence in the world. And a good listener is always welcome. >"OK then," she said, her hand in her hair once again. "To acceptance." I think I speak for all of us... you're accepted here. Have a seat, join a conversation, make another friend. Welcome to Callahan's! -- Chris Phoenix | A harp is a nude piano. cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU | "More input! More input!" Life is the only game in which the object of the game is to learn the rules. Disclaimer: I want a kinder, gentler net with a thousand pints of lite. From gsmith@garnet.berkeley.edu Sat Dec 9 04:27:39 1989 From: gsmith@garnet.berkeley.edu (Gene W. Smith) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Date: 9 Dec 89 05:42:05 GMT Reply-To: gsmith@garnet.berkeley.edu (Gene W. Smith) Organization: Garnet Gang Gems of Wisdom, Inc. In-reply-to: cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU (Chris Phoenix) Status: O In article <11360@csli.Stanford.EDU>, cphoenix@csli (Chris Phoenix) writes: >I think I speak for all of us... you're accepted here. Have a seat, join >a conversation, make another friend. Welcome to Callahan's! Is it OK if I'm an obnoxious drunk? -- ucbvax!garnet!gsmith Gene Ward Smith/Brahmsgangster/Berkeley CA 94720 ucbvax!bosco!gsmith A box of mixed biscuits in a biscuit mixer From cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU Sat Dec 9 04:27:39 1989 From: cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU (Chris Phoenix) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Interconnectedness Date: 9 Dec 89 06:14:26 GMT Reply-To: cphoenix@csli.stanford.edu (Chris Phoenix) Distribution: usa Organization: Center for the Study of Language and Information, Stanford U. Status: O In article <12058@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> jmdoyle@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Jennifer Mary Doyle) writes: >Here's something to make those of you talking about this think. Heaven knows >I have since I've been hearing this thread. Those people you've been talking >about? The ones who you have to be "socially correct" for? The ones who >aren't worth a damn? > >I'm one of them. Oops. I'm sorry. I suppose I've been a little too harsh on you people. (But just a little, mind you :-) I never meant to say you weren't worth a damn. I don't think you're worthless at all. What I was saying is that it's really hard for me to deal with you (In this article, "you" is collective.) If I don't accept your rules, you reject me. If I do, then I become something I really don't want to be. Rule- less relationships and friendships are possible, and IMHO are much better than rulefull ones. But if I integrate your rules, then I can't have any ruleless ones. At this point, I don't think I can accept the rules. Trying to has messed me up, and cost me several months of grief. But if I don't accept them, I get rejection. I tried, but you just wouldn't deal with me, wouldn't relate to me, even ran away from me--sometimes literally! Yes, I'm bitter. I've been realizing that I can't be connected to the vast majority of my peers, unless I force myself into a mask that absolutely doesn't fit me. After spending months learning these rules, then just as you start to accept me I realize that I've turned myself into something I can't live with, so you'll reject me again when I go back to being myself. Can you blame me for rejecting you first? > ... What I didn't see is that maybe *I* needed to change, too. > ... What I do know, and what I can see, is that we're all changing, Jason, >and I, and the rest of the group. I guess the reason I'm saying all this, is >because I want to make you realize that I'm not evil, none of us are. I never >set out to hurt anyone, just the opposite. This makes me feel a lot better. All I wanted was for people to think about the masks and rules, and try to find a better way. Maybe there isn't one... I certainly don't think you're evil, or trying to hurt anyone. >But I have a hard time saying "You >make me uncomfortable" or "Please don't touch me" or "I need to talk about >our relationship with one another". It is easier to maintain the status quo >than go out on a limb, and that's what I tend to do. I never really felt I was >being dishonest, or bad, I felt I was doing the right thing. I'm beginning >to think that honesty doesn't precede friendship, and friendship doesn't >precede honesty, but that when you've found one, you've found the other. I know, it is hard to be open. I'm not saying you should suddenly tear off the mask and go defenseless--that would be too much to ask. I am saying that if someone doesn't already have a mask in place, he should not try to build one, but instead find places where he doesn't need to use it. Yes, this means that if you can't be comfortable with maskless people, you will be excluded. And it means that if you're in a group full of people who can't be comfortable, we may not have the resources it takes to find you. And it means that we will very likely be bitter toward you--without meaning to, you have kept us on the social fringes for years. >Maybe the rules Chris proposed aren't entirely bad. Think about what we do in >real life, with the people who are true friends. The rules sit in our >subconscious, and we generally don't follow them. But we know when to apply >them in certain situations, we know when being close will make someone >uncomfortable, and when it will be the best thing for them. I think we all >follow these rules in some sense. If we didn't, we would do exactly as we >wanted all the time, and we would have no friends. An extreme of touching >someone when they don't want to be touched is assault, or worse. We need to >find a happy medium. Now I'm afraid you didn't understand the rules, and what I mean by refusing to follow them. One of the rules is Don't touch people. If I don't follow it, that doesn't mean I touch whoever I want to. I agree, we need some rules to govern our behavior, but not the kind of rules I was listing there. There are other rules to follow. With true friends, I don't think we do apply these rules. Others... for example, "Care for your friends and do what is best for them and will make them happy." This rule by itself will be enough for most friendships, as long as both people follow it. Again, I'm not saying we should have no rules at all, just no rules of the kind I was listing. I guess if we used the rule "Be nice to everyone you relate to and do what will make them least uncomfortable", that would be the basis for most of the "rules" I listed. But can you see the difference between this one and the "Care for your friends" rule? The first, IMHO, is healthier somehow and doesn't require that I change who I am nearly as much as the second. I guess I'm losing what I'm trying to say here. I hope this makes some sense. And again, I'm not saying you're not worth relating to, just that I can't afford the effort and changes it would take to relate to you, and I wish you could change so that I could relate to you. Again, I'm sorry I was so harsh. -- Chris Phoenix | A harp is a nude piano. cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU | "More input! More input!" Life is the only game in which the object of the game is to learn the rules. Disclaimer: I want a kinder, gentler net with a thousand pints of lite.