From jmdoyle@phoenix.Princeton.EDU Sun Dec 10 14:31:12 1989 From: jmdoyle@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Jennifer Doyle) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Interconnectedness Date: 9 Dec 89 20:10:37 GMT Reply-To: jmdoyle@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Jennifer Mary Doyle) Distribution: usa Organization: or, conversely, Chaos: Status: O In <11364@csli.Stanford.EDU> cphoenix@csli.stanford.edu (Chris Phoenix) writes: >In <12058@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> jmdoyle@phoenix.Princeton.EDU I write: >>But I have a hard time saying "You >>make me uncomfortable" or "Please don't touch me" or "I need to talk about >>our relationship with one another". It is easier to maintain the status quo >>than go out on a limb, and that's what I tend to do. I never really felt I >>was being dishonest, or bad, I felt I was doing the right thing. I'm >>beginning to think that honesty doesn't precede friendship, and friendship >>doesn't precede honesty, but that when you've found one, you've found the >>other. >I know, it is hard to be open. I'm not saying you should suddenly tear off >the mask and go defenseless--that would be too much to ask. I am saying that >if someone doesn't already have a mask in place, he should not try to build >one, but instead find places where he doesn't need to use it. Yes, this means >that if you can't be comfortable with maskless people, you will be excluded. >And it means that if you're in a group full of people who can't be comfortable >we may not have the resources it takes to find you. And it means that we will >very likely be bitter toward you--without meaning to, you have kept us on the >social fringes for years. Now I feel I have to add something else. The reason I *have* a mask, and the reason I hide is because I've been there too. Imagine being in third grade, when kids are cruelest, and being too tall, too smart, shy, and always rubbing at your runny nose because you were too shy to ask for a tissue. I *hated* third grade. It wasn't until I switched schools that things got better, but even then I had a hard time. I'm tall, I don't like to party on the weekends and get drunk, I'm just not a social butterfly. I read a lot, SF and fantasy mostly, I'm an RPGamer, I'm *not* your stereotypical socialite highschool girl. Add to that the fact that I *don't* want to take chances with anything as scary as people, and you get someone who's not got a lot of friends. Then I got to college. There's various stories in that, which I won't go into. Now, finally, I have a group of friends I feel very close to. But the mask is still there. I feel it has to be sometimes, that if I showed some of the intensity I feel, I'd scare people off. And perhaps the person who sees the mask most is the one I consider my closest friend. There are feelings I *won't* show him, for fear of losing him. And yes, I do want to keep him. I'm just trying to say that I'm not "them" where you all are "we", all of us are in this together. Maybe a lot of people with those masks that you [general you] are bitter towards have been hurt themselves, and they don't know the mask is up, they don't realize they've changed. I know someone who's mask has been in place for so long, she has no idea it exists. The masked people are not bad guys, they may be the ones who will understand best if you can get through. Jen -- "Make mine a root beer, Mike. Thanks. To communication! " ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jennifer Doyle // Princeton '92 // jmdoyle@phoenix.princeton.edu Disclaimer: I am a student, I represent the future. From cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU Sun Dec 10 14:31:13 1989 From: cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU (Chris Phoenix) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Poisoned Warm Fuzzies? Date: 10 Dec 89 01:48:47 GMT Reply-To: cphoenix@csli.stanford.edu (Chris Phoenix) Organization: Center for the Study of Language and Information, Stanford U. Status: O In article <12086@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> jwbirdsa@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (James Webster Birdsall) writes: > "I give out Warm Fuzzies, as well. But I'm never so sure exactly WHY >I'm doing it. You've got to admit that Warm Fuzzies make a good tactical >weapon. > "To clarify a bit: suppose you give Warm Fuzzies to someone for no >particular reason. They may say to themselves -- whether consciously or >unconsciously doesn't matter -- 'Gee, he's a nice guy and would make a >good friend.' And I'm always stuck wondering whether I'm giving Fuzzies >out because I _am_ a nice guy or whether I'm doing it in a Machiavellian >sense, just because I need friends. One possible way to tell: Do you start giving out fewer warm fuzzies when you start to feel like you have enough friends? Do you give warm fuzzies to people who you don't have much chance of being friends with? (other tourists on vacation, for example.) If so, then you're not just doing it to make friends. > "Of course, this goes double for potential romantic relationships, >and this is where the ethical problems really kick in. Am I being guilty >of false advertising? > "Some of this problem stems from that fact that I cannot, I will not, >accept Vampire's instant targeting locks. This is something I've noticed >a lot of you people doing, also, especially in the mail I've gotten. I think part of this is just being too idealistic--being too quick to believe that the target will return your invitation of friendship. One of my axioms, I guess, is that any two people who want to can be friends. This may not be true. But since I believe that, then if I want to be friends with someone and he wants to be friends with me, I consider us friends. Of course, he may not really want to... I've been burned by that several times. >Think about it: you don't know a bloody thing about me except what I've >posted here. For all you know, I could be making it all up as I go >along! I could be using you people. > "I'm not, but you really have only my word to prove it. > "Anyway, how can you claim to be my friend when you know so little >about me? The only way it makes sense is if you mean 'friend' as >shallowly as the people who have been so recently denounced here. Ouch. You're right, of course. I guess all I can say is that I use "friend" to mean someone who I think I'm going to feel that way about, as well as someone I already do. And I treat my future-friends pretty much the same way I treat my real- friends. I don't expect nearly as much from them, of course. But I am honest with them, I help them if they ask for it, I care about them... I honestly believe that this is the way I am anyway, that I'm not doing this in order to make them be friends with me--at least not exclusively. And you're right that you could be deceiving us. In that case, my friendship would have gone out to something that doesn't exist, and so it would have been wasted--but I think that doesn't change the fact that my actions were actions of friendship. > "To return to the main point: while I'm still deciding about >somebody, I have to maintain their interest somehow. And it seems to be >the way the world works that Warm Fuzzies are the only way to do it. So >I'm stuck giving out Warm Fuzzies and hoping that my rational evaluation >matches Vampire's emotional reaction. And no matter how I slice that, >it leaves a bad taste in my mouth called 'False Pretenses.' Do you give out Warm Fuzzies only to friends, then? It's just my nature to give them out to anyone who will accept them--and who isn't too unpleasant to be around. I don't see how giving out warm fuzzies to your future-friends is false pretenses. Can you explain some more? -- Chris Phoenix | A harp is a nude piano. cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU | "More input! More input!" Life is the only game in which the object of the game is to learn the rules. Disclaimer: I want a kinder, gentler net with a thousand pints of lite. From cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU Sun Dec 10 14:31:15 1989 From: cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU (Chris Phoenix) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Interconnectedness Date: 10 Dec 89 05:06:09 GMT Reply-To: cphoenix@csli.stanford.edu (Chris Phoenix) Distribution: usa Organization: Center for the Study of Language and Information, Stanford U. Status: O In article <12089@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> jmdoyle@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Jennifer Mary Doyle) writes: >Now I feel I have to add something else. The reason I *have* a mask, and the >reason I hide is because I've been there too. I know. I think that's why most people put on masks--to get along with other people. I don't blame you for doing it--I started to do it myself, and I think I'm lucky I realized in time, and had enough other friends that I could afford to be maskless. >Now, finally, I have a group of friends I feel very close to. But the >mask is still there. I feel it has to be sometimes, that if I showed some of >the intensity I feel, I'd scare people off. And perhaps the person who sees >the mask most is the one I consider my closest friend. There are feelings I >*won't* show him, for fear of losing him. And yes, I do want to keep him. That's what I've been saying--that intensity and masklessness will scare some people off. There's a distinction I should have made long ago, and I'm sorry I didn't think to say it. I'm not upset at people who wear a mask. I'm upset at people who can't deal with maskless people. I guess it's just that the two traits are often closely linked. I probably will find it hard to get close to you if you wear a mask all the time, but I don't get angry with anyone who wears a mask--I just feel sort of sorry for them, and wish they could take it off. What I get angry at is when someone rejects me just because I'm not wearing a mask. This is what I've been yelling about all the past few days--I'm being rejected because I don't want to wear this mask that I have no use for, and that is totally foreign to who I am. Yes, I think masks are bad-- but what I don't like is the way people require me to wear them. >... I'm >just trying to say that I'm not "them" where you all are "we", all of us are >in this together. Yes, my use of 'we' and 'them' was rather harsh. I do see a rather large schism, though, between people who don't have masks (since I'm one of us, I said 'we') and people who can't tolerate us (what can I call them but 'them'?) These are the people I was 'them'ing--I don't try to cut off everyone who has a mask, just everyone who will reject me for not having one. As I said, can you blame me for rejecting them first? >Maybe a lot of people with those masks that you [general >you] are bitter towards have been hurt themselves, and they don't know the >mask is up, they don't realize they've changed. I know someone who's mask has >been in place for so long, she has no idea it exists. The masked people are >not bad guys, they may be the ones who will understand best if you can get >through. I think the key is in the way I read your second sentence. " Maybe a lot of people with [those masks that you are bitter towards]." See the difference? Putting on masks is a bad thing to have to do, but I don't think that people who do it are bad--I know they've been hurt themselves, except for the few who got the masks up even before they needed them. And what I am hoping for-- the reason I've been writing all this--is that I *am* trying to get through. Actually, I'm aiming it at two different groups, although they do seem to overlap a lot (and this is what makes me wary of anyone with a mask): For people who are wearing the mask, to realize what the mask may be doing to them, and to realize that they don't always need it. For people who are afraid of maskless people, to realize exactly what their fear is based on, and hopefully to try to overcome it. Now that I think about it some more, maybe overusing masks will cause you to be afraid of maskless people. Remember my story about being touched at a party? After only two months of a mask, I was actually afraid to be touched. I'd like you (and all of you) to answer 2 more questions. I'm not asking you to tell me the answers, but answer them and think about them, and whether you're happy with the answers. If you knew that your friend wanted you to drop your mask, and that he wouldn't be scared when you did, would you be able to do it? Would you want to do it? If your friend suddenly dropped his mask, would you be afraid of him? -- Chris Phoenix | A harp is a nude piano. cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU | "More input! More input!" Life is the only game in which the object of the game is to learn the rules. Disclaimer: I want a kinder, gentler net with a thousand pints of lite. From cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU Sun Dec 10 14:31:15 1989 From: cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU (Chris Phoenix) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Interconnectedness Date: 10 Dec 89 05:06:09 GMT Reply-To: cphoenix@csli.stanford.edu (Chris Phoenix) Distribution: usa Organization: Center for the Study of Language and Information, Stanford U. Status: O In article <12089@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> jmdoyle@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Jennifer Mary Doyle) writes: >Now I feel I have to add something else. The reason I *have* a mask, and the >reason I hide is because I've been there too. I know. I think that's why most people put on masks--to get along with other people. I don't blame you for doing it--I started to do it myself, and I think I'm lucky I realized in time, and had enough other friends that I could afford to be maskless. >Now, finally, I have a group of friends I feel very close to. But the >mask is still there. I feel it has to be sometimes, that if I showed some of >the intensity I feel, I'd scare people off. And perhaps the person who sees >the mask most is the one I consider my closest friend. There are feelings I >*won't* show him, for fear of losing him. And yes, I do want to keep him. That's what I've been saying--that intensity and masklessness will scare some people off. There's a distinction I should have made long ago, and I'm sorry I didn't think to say it. I'm not upset at people who wear a mask. I'm upset at people who can't deal with maskless people. I guess it's just that the two traits are often closely linked. I probably will find it hard to get close to you if you wear a mask all the time, but I don't get angry with anyone who wears a mask--I just feel sort of sorry for them, and wish they could take it off. What I get angry at is when someone rejects me just because I'm not wearing a mask. This is what I've been yelling about all the past few days--I'm being rejected because I don't want to wear this mask that I have no use for, and that is totally foreign to who I am. Yes, I think masks are bad-- but what I don't like is the way people require me to wear them. >... I'm >just trying to say that I'm not "them" where you all are "we", all of us are >in this together. Yes, my use of 'we' and 'them' was rather harsh. I do see a rather large schism, though, between people who don't have masks (since I'm one of us, I said 'we') and people who can't tolerate us (what can I call them but 'them'?) These are the people I was 'them'ing--I don't try to cut off everyone who has a mask, just everyone who will reject me for not having one. As I said, can you blame me for rejecting them first? >Maybe a lot of people with those masks that you [general >you] are bitter towards have been hurt themselves, and they don't know the >mask is up, they don't realize they've changed. I know someone who's mask has >been in place for so long, she has no idea it exists. The masked people are >not bad guys, they may be the ones who will understand best if you can get >through. I think the key is in the way I read your second sentence. " Maybe a lot of people with [those masks that you are bitter towards]." See the difference? Putting on masks is a bad thing to have to do, but I don't think that people who do it are bad--I know they've been hurt themselves, except for the few who got the masks up even before they needed them. And what I am hoping for-- the reason I've been writing all this--is that I *am* trying to get through. Actually, I'm aiming it at two different groups, although they do seem to overlap a lot (and this is what makes me wary of anyone with a mask): For people who are wearing the mask, to realize what the mask may be doing to them, and to realize that they don't always need it. For people who are afraid of maskless people, to realize exactly what their fear is based on, and hopefully to try to overcome it. Now that I think about it some more, maybe overusing masks will cause you to be afraid of maskless people. Remember my story about being touched at a party? After only two months of a mask, I was actually afraid to be touched. I'd like you (and all of you) to answer 2 more questions. I'm not asking you to tell me the answers, but answer them and think about them, and whether you're happy with the answers. If you knew that your friend wanted you to drop your mask, and that he wouldn't be scared when you did, would you be able to do it? Would you want to do it? If your friend suddenly dropped his mask, would you be afraid of him? -- Chris Phoenix | A harp is a nude piano. cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU | "More input! More input!" Life is the only game in which the object of the game is to learn the rules. Disclaimer: I want a kinder, gentler net with a thousand pints of lite. From kdo@lucid.com Sun Dec 10 21:05:34 1989 From: kdo@lucid.com (Ken Olum) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Group Relationships Date: 10 Dec 89 19:57:32 GMT Reply-To: kdo@lucid.com Organization: Lucid East, Sharon MA Summary: just another possibility Status: O I'm afraid I've been out in the real world for a while, and haven't been able to make it in to the Place. Fortunately here in cyberspace time doesn't work quite the same way, and Jeff Hildebrand's words are just as fresh as if he'd said them yesterday. In article <1989Dec3.191415.7367@cs.swarthmore.edu> hildebrd@cs.swarthmore.edu () writes: > "It started very simply. There were four of us.... Of the four > students, there were three men and one woman. It was spring, we were >having fun, and it was inevitable what happened. > "Relationships are what happened. She started going out with one of the >other men, then broke up. A few days before the fifth and final gathering, she >and I talked and a start at a relationship was made there. Then came the wild, >crazy summer." > . . . >I had for the first time in my life fallen wildly in love. But the >old relationship between her and the other guy sprang back up. We had >a triangle going.... > "So here I stand. The closely knit circle we wove last spring has >disintegrated. I have a similar story to tell, and maybe you can see a bit more of where I'm coming from. I had my first real romantic involvement when I was a freshman in college. Unfortunately she got involved with someone else as well. She didn't want to give either of us up, but we weren't very good at dealing with this kind of thing, and it got pretty unpleasant at times. Well, this someone else was involved with yet another person, who was also involved with still other people, and it went on and on in a long chain of confusion. She and I were honest with each other, which wasn't the case for everyone in the chain, but even so I was pretty unhappy. So, when another women showed some interest in me I felt free to respond and soon this chain of relationships extended on both sides. In the end I decided that the situation was too stressful, and chose this new person and broke off my original relationship. With time passing the of chain people collapsed into pairs or single people. This was long ago and far away, and many relationships have formed and dissolved since then. But wait. Today my best friend is the person I was first involved with. We live together in a group house, and we aren't lovers. We didn't get back together as a couple, although we talk about it sometimes, but we're very important to each other and we get a whole lot out of each other's friendship. I've had lovers, and I might like to get married someday, but in my experience its real friendships like this that last and that make the difference. If you have friends like this you are blessed, and if your lovers are friends like this you are doubly blessed. Since all this I've grown a lot and learned a lot about the way that things can be, and I know there are more possibilites now. Romantic relationships don't have to be pairs. There are open relationships but there are also group relationships, and just because someone is involved with someone else doesn't mean you can't be involved with them as well, and really be a group of 3 or 4 or however many you have. I haven't actually been in such a relationship, but I know people who have and who say that having to choose one person would never work for them. I open to such relationships and I feel a kinship with them because I live in a group of friends. What's important to me is a "closely knit circle of friends" as Jeff says, and I think a closely knit circle of lovers would work for me as well. Jeff, I don't know if this would have worked for your group, but something about your description made me feel I should mention it. It isn't right for everybody, and it isn't easy, but one of the more important things I've learned in my life is to be tolerant and open. It's easier to find what's right for you if you know all the things that can be in the world. All of this and I see I don't even have a drink. A glass of milk, if you please, and I'll collect my change. Ken From woody@eos.UUCP Sun Dec 10 21:06:12 1989 From: woody@eos.UUCP (Wayne Wood) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Masks Date: 10 Dec 89 21:10:00 GMT Reply-To: woody@eos.UUCP (Wayne Wood) Distribution: alt Organization: NASA Ames Research Center, Calif. Keywords: Masks are nothing but illusions. Status: RO the door opens and in walks a stranger. he shakes the snow from his mane of hair and brushes it from his beard. he walks to the bar, flips down his VA check and says, "tequila, tell me when the check is exhausted...". he accepts the tumbler of amber liquid and toes the line. "to the past that might have been, to the future that may never be..." the story: you may remember me from before, i made a toast to those who have gone before. i have been standing outside, listening, since the saloon opened. now i think i can add my thoughts to the collective mind. we all wear masks to protect us from real or imagined dangers in the real world. some times these masks are beneficial, and sometimes they save us from the pain of reality. but other times they prevent us from showing our innermost selves to those who may change us. as long as we fear, we may use the mask as a shield. it provides us the security of our solitude. when the security of that solitude is preferrable to the uncertainty of reality, then there is a serious problem. speaking only for myself, i created a past i could live with because i couldn't bear the memories of my real past. this was detrimental to my future. i am now able to face the pain of my past and now it has helped me to create a multitude of possible futures for myself. this is the key... we are, to some extent, the experiences that have brought us to this point. denial of those experiences controls our future... "better safe than sorry" ... but we must learn from our past to create and control our future. REFLECT ON YOUR PAST, EXPERIENCE YOUR PRESENT, CONTROL YOUR FUTURE... please reserve your masks for those you may not trust, but with those worthy of your trust, remove the mask and share the real you. i down the tequila, grimace from the bite, then reach out and gently place the tumbler on the hearth. i turn, scan the room, move to an empty {dark} corner, and wait. /*** woody **************************************************************** *** ...tongue tied and twisted, just an earth bound misfit, I... *** *** -- David Gilmour, Pink Floyd *** ****** woody@eos.arc.nasa.gov *** my opinions, like my mind, are my own ******/ From n8946177@unicorn.WWU.EDU Sun Dec 10 21:08:56 1989 From: n8946177@unicorn.WWU.EDU (Melissa Tabbifli) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Luru? Date: 10 Dec 89 22:12:26 GMT Reply-To: n8946177@unicorn.UUCP (Melissa Tabbifli) Distribution: alt Organization: Western Washington Univ, Bellingham Status: O as the young man with strawberry hair talks, then leaves, the tabbifli perks her ears up, then sits up, then, as he begins to walk out the door, calls out "Luru?? Luru! wait!!" but he doesn't hear her, and continues going. when the door closes behind him, she takes to wing, and flutters above the pillow she had been sitting on, and looks around the room with a bewildered expression on her face. "he's a friend of mine - finnish, yes, but a friend nonetheless. i think i am the one that told him about here.. he is a person who *knows* hugs, and i thought he would be welcome here. i still do... now, if i can only find him." with that, there is a small ***poof*** and the place she had been became empty rather quickly. some time later, Melissa wandered back in the dorr, brushed snow off, and asked for another glass of wine. "i talked to him - i think he'll be back soon. it is a place i hope that he will be comfortable in." "a recent thread of discussion has been masks, and society. i agree that many people wear masks. i do not. Melissa Tabbifli is one person, Melissa and tabbi just two parts of that person. i don't think i have ever worn a mask unless i was hurting and wanted to keep from upsetting my friends - and it didn't usually work even then. ah, well. perhaps it is for that reason that i am not easily intimidated by much of anything." with that, she shimmered, and became the tabbifli again, and curled back up onto her pillow. "if you all don't mind, i think i'll just nap until my person gets here...." and with that ambigous statement, she apparently falls back asleep under the minstrating hands of all the wonderful people who have all adopted her. *purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr* *hug* - Melissa Tabbifli p.s. - a little bit of (*gasp*) Reality. a few of you may have decided to send a reply to my first post, and i have not answered you. the reason for this is quite simple - it never got to me. see, there was a small mix-up in machines in the reply-to line. the address for me is NOT uucp. it is -- n8946177@unicorn.wwu.edu i *will* try to catch this in the future.... i really do apologise for not catching it until it was pointed out to me. thanks to any and all who did take the time to reply to me - it really is appreciated. - m. t. From kathy@fps.com Sun Dec 10 21:09:03 1989 From: kathy@fps.com (the Rev. Mom) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: And may I introduce... Date: 8 Dec 89 22:10:49 GMT Reply-To: robin@ccb.ucsf.edu Distribution: alt.callahans Organization: FPS Computing Inc., San Diego CA Keywords: A hello. Summary: ...my friend Robin Colgrove. Status: O Hi. I'm posting this for a friend whose pnews keeps crunching lines with alt in them. His name is Robin Colgrove (robin@ccb.ucsf.edu). Please send replies to him. He's neat. --Kathy Li aka the Rev. Mom ======================================== >From robin@ccb.ucsf.EDU Fri Dec 8 14:03:36 1989 A slightly goofy looking stranger strides into Callahan's, swaggers up to the bar and prepares to mezmerize the crowd with his eloquence and sagacity. He leans rakishly against the bartop and opens his mouth to declaim but -having mistakenly set his elbow down on an empty shot glass from the next stool over- slips along the edge of the bar, crashing to the ground and biting his tongue badly. Nimbly bouncing back up and hoping no one had noticed the pratfall, he smashes his head on the underside of the bar. He reaches stunned for some support from the barstool leg on his left, only to grab the attractive but unwilling knee of a startled young lady heretofore too deep in thought to notice. A swift kick sends him sprawling spread-eagle onto the nearest table, scattering chessmen hither and yon. His remaining momentum and growing confusion concerning the direction of the local gravitational vector propel him across the table and bring him finally to rest with a convincing THWOP fanny-first into an empty chair. "Yes, ahem, well. Now that I have your attention. Apologies for the unusual entrance. I've tried every trick I know and just can't get through directly. A Callahan's Regular asked me to drop in and enliven the atmosphere with my mature wisdom and, uhhh, polished poise. Right. Any minute now I'll think of something really deep...really, really like deep... don't rush me...I'm thinking...I think...I think I'll have a Guiness and a black coffee, Mike, and wait for my tongue to stop bleeding." With that, he finished the oration, fished a rook and two pawns from under his shirt, and started in on his beer. From haste+@andrew.cmu.edu Sun Dec 10 23:52:33 1989 From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Fuzzies and Other People Date: 11 Dec 89 02:11:45 GMT Organization: Graduate School of Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Status: O "...so you see, there are no contradictions. Since the carpet is more valuable than the bread by far, in this case the bread will fall butter-side up. It follows that you can't use this approach to generate a singularity." "Okay, that won't work, but let's get back to my original point: I still say that the troll was the true hero of the story. You have been arguing that the troll, through base motives, changed the Swabeedoo-dahs from a happy folk to an unhappy folk, and that this was, by any reasonable definition, an evil act." "I've also argued, on more than one occasion, that the proper thing to do when you've been shown to be wrong is to admit it, not to continue pursuing the argument from some completely foreign angle." The man in the tweed jacket spoke firmly, but his weathered features betrayed little optimism. "But you have to remember that the situation was never more than meta-stable", Dani blithely ignored the invitation to change the subject. "In your insistence upon casting the troll as the Snake in the garden, you're forgetting to cast Swabeedoo as the garden: Whether there was a snake or not, someone was *eventually* going to eat that apple. Whether there was a troll or not, some Swabeedoo-dah was eventually going to bring down *that* house of cards. Sure, the troll did that, but he was just as naive as the Swabeedoo-dahs, just as little able to foresee the consequences. And *unlike* them, he did make an effort -- however stumbling -- to find a solution." The older man signalled a momentary halt, went to the bar and brought back a Kahluah with cream. Perhaps if Dani had to make a choice between his Kahluah and his argument... "Thank you", said Dani, while sipping his drink. "Actually, a closer analogy might be between Swabeedoo and the 'state of nature' that enlightenment philosophers were so fond of talking about. After all, neither is posited to have existed: Both are thought experiments designed to help us consider the fair accompli which is our current society. And that's a society in which..." He was interrupted by a hand on his shoulder. "There are six of us about to start a game of Diplomacy, and looking for a seventh". The hand was connected to a chubby, slightly florid man in his mid-twenties. "Interested?" "Can I play Italy?" A rescue, mused Dani's companion, intercepting the wink which the chubby gamer sent his way. "Go, go", he responded to Dani's inquiring glance. We can continue this conversation another time. He settled comfortably into his chair and regarded his drink. 'Thought experiment'! He didn't much care for that, but sympathy was always appreciated. And he *had* learned a lot since those first mistakes. He reached into his pouch for a warm fuzzy to hand his departing friend; there didn't seem to be that many left. He gave Dani a warm, friendly smile instead, and returned to his drink. ----- Dani Zweig haste@andrew.cmu.edu The trouble with algebraic errors is that they tend to lead to corner solutions Disclaimer: University is supposed to be educational, so if after all these years I'm still saying something wrong or inappropriate, it is surely the fault of the university.