Path: mit-eddie!wuarchive!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!ucsd!ucsdhub!hp-sdd!hplabs!hplred!egly From: egly@hplred.HP.COM (Diana Egly) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: WAR Message-ID: <20940037@hplred.HP.COM> Date: 9 Feb 90 22:13:19 GMT References: <9060012@hpfcso.HP.COM> Organization: Hewlett Packard Labs, Palo Alto CA Lines: 134 / hplred:alt.callahans / daq@hpfcso.HP.COM (Doug Quarnstrom) / 6:26 pm Jan 31, 1990 / / hpfcso:alt.callahans / egly@hplred.HP.COM (Diana Egly) / 6:04 pm Jan 30, 1990 / I walk into Callahans and look around. I'm surprised to see it so empty. Wandering over to the bar I say to Mike, "looks like everyone stayed home" He mutters something about a possible MTA break-down. "Do you have nonfat frozen yogurt, raspberry flavored? I'd like a raspberry soda." He reminds me, with a merry twinkle in his eye, that Callahan's is a bar and not a soda shop. But he makes a soda for me all the same. Then I notice the Cynic and sit with him to chat about war. >>Why is it that soldiers come back from war with mind and spirit broken? >>We can call it "shell shock" or "post-traumatic stress syndrome" or > > Well, I do not believe that the percentage of men whose "spirits > are broken" is as high as you think. According to Department of War data, 20% of all returning vets from WWII required hospitalization for mental/emotional problems. Also remember that only 20% of our troops in WWII were combat troops. > It may be that high in > the case of wars like vietnam where the men get no support when > they come back. The percentage was higher for vietnam vets who needed some form of treatment (we don't hospitalize people for mental problems as readily as we did in the '40s.) Now I don't buy the explaination that it's no support that matters for vietnam vets. A DoD study of factors that were predictive of which soldiers were likely to suffer from serious mental problems after returning home found that when you corrected for factors like percentage of men involved in direct combat and age of our soldiers that there was no statistical difference between vietnam vets and vets of (take your pick) WWI, WWII, or Korea. So while it's a popular explaination that vietnam vets have suffered more than other vets because they lacked support, it's not supported by the data. I'll let you speculate about why the DoD has pretty much buried this series of studies about vets and mental problems... > And certainly there are plenty in any war, > but humans are adaptable, and, given proper support, I suspect > that most of them cope just fine. Remember again that most people who cope just fine after serving in a war were *not* combat troops. And the majority of solders who served in combat do need pretty major support. I don't know how well they recovery, but I do know that most beds in Veterans Hospitals are filled with people suffering from service-related mental problems. This has been continuously true since WWI. More service-related disabilities are mental disabilities than they are physical disabilities. And those data do NOT include substance abuse as a mental disability... I find this sufficient evidence for my previous conclusions. You may interpret it differently. > Yes, I did know that a high percentage of men in combat do little but > hide, unless they are very highly trained. But I did not say that it > is in human nature to enjoy combat. I said that it is part of human > nature to become involved in wars. Certainly, once the war starts, > many people realize that it is not alot of fun. Essentially we are in agreement... I granted that it is human nature to declare war, but that it is not human nature to FIGHT wars. This seems to be what you've just said. > You seem to have reacted to my post as if I were saying war is good. No. I didn't think you said that war was good. I thought that you said that it was human nature to have wars. I'd react much the same way if you said that it was human nature to have schizophrenia. I object to the words "human nature" in these statements. It's a part of human experience that our species is pretty [explative deletes] persistant in having wars. It's a part of human experience that schizophrenia is a pretty persistant problem for our species as well. For me to say that either of these things were human nature implies that they are a basic part of being a member of the species, that it's a feeling/perception/experience that we all share. That we all are war-like or that we all have the impulse to be warriors. But in fact we don't. In fact most of us who do the actual fighting in wars suffer from mental problems as a consequence. So most of us are not *by*nature* warriors. > There were PLENTY of men in WW2 who volunteered to fight. And I > personally KNOW people who are in the military, and they are > WILLING to fight if necessary. I beleive that they would not > like it once it started, but make no mistake, there are people > who are soldiers at heart, even now. The existance of such people does not make this an essential element in what it means to be human -- or if you prefer, a part of human nature. > I want to tread lightly here, because I do not want to generate > flames, and this subject is a little out of the Callahans norm, > but this issue really bothers me. I think it is a mistake > to assume blindly that the instability in Europe now is > a panacea and that perpetual harmony is on the horizon. > We could get lulled into a deadly sleep if that happens. > The world is a dangerous place and cannot be viewed > through rose colored glasses. > > I seemed to sense some vitriol in your reply, Diana, and > I suspect that you feel very strongly about this, so I am > willing to listen to more input if you are willing to > post it. I am really not sure what resolution I am looking > for, but perhaps something will come out of this... I do feel strongly about this. I am angered that we have so many men locked up in psych wards whose existance we do not acknowledge. I am angry that we are encouraged to point fingers at ourselves for the plight of vietnam vets. I am angry that we've been lied to about the after-effects of war is on those who fight. You see, I think we will continue to glorify war as long as we don't take a close look at what happens to the warriors... to the ones who serve in combat... And I think that as long as we glorify war we remain likely to engage in it. None of this is intended to negate or contradict your concerns about the current instability in Europe. I rather like what a French diplomat said when asked what he thought about the prospects for a unified Germany. He said, "The French love Germany. We love Germany so much that we wish there were three of them." Diana Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: mit-eddie!mintaka!chaos.cs.brandeis.edu!adam From: adam@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu (David C. Kaplowitz) Subject: Re: WAR In-Reply-To: egly@hplred.HP.COM's message of 9 Feb 90 22:13:19 GMT Message-ID: <1990Feb10.123201.4094@chaos.cs.brandeis.edu> Organization: Brandeis University Computer Science Dept References: <9060012@hpfcso.HP.COM> <20940037@hplred.HP.COM> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 90 12:32:01 GMT Hey, could someone send Tom Haupman over this way? I want to see our resident time traveler if he can make sence out of the `80s We started with the hostage crisis, and we ended with the removal of the berlin wall and obvious breaking down of the " communist " governments. We started with the stepping up of the space race, and now we have fallen far behind in humanitys only "elbow room" area. We've gone from calculators to macintoshes (and vaxes and unix ... ) I want to see if I can wallow in some dust. Traveler in elephants (how's the memory folks?) adam -- Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!usc!wuarchive!decwrl!ucbvax!ucdavis!csusac!scott From: scott@csusac.csus.edu (L. Scott Emmons) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Boston Callahans II (08-Feb-1990) report Keywords: fairness, wonderfulness ideanesses Message-ID: <1990Feb10.182339.3014@csusac.csus.edu> Date: 10 Feb 90 18:23:39 GMT References: <15913@haddock.ima.isc.com> Reply-To: scott@csusac.UUCP (L. Scott Emmons) Distribution: alt Organization: California State University, Sacramento Lines: 11 In article <15913@haddock.ima.isc.com> karl@haddock.ima.isc.com (Karl Heuer) writes: > [account of callahan's get together] Hey! no fair! Think we can get federal funding to fly those of us elsewhere in the known (and unkown) universe to Boston to enjoy {alt.}Callahan's get togethers too?!?! -- L. Scott Emmons --------------- ...[!ucbvax]!ucdavis!csusac!scott ucdavis!csusac!scott@ucbvax.berkeley.edu Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!usc!samsung!uunet!mcsun!ukc!stc!rmj From: rmj@tcom.stc.co.uk (Rhodri James) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: A Little Dream Message-ID: <1345@jura.tcom.stc.co.uk> Date: 9 Feb 90 13:41:13 GMT References: <7810@pt.cs.cmu.edu> <467@sixhub.UUCP> Reply-To: rmj@htc2.UUCP (Rhodri James) Organization: STC Telecomms, Harlow Technical Centre, Harlow Lines: 24 A medium height, bearded man is suddenly blown in, manages to shut the door behind him somehow or other and looks round. "Wow," he says, I didn't think this place existed." He wanders over to the bar, takes his coat off and starts negotiating the pound/dollar exchange rate with Mike. He is wearing a tee-shirt reading "Don't shoot me... I'm only the piano player" After a bit, the n-tet in the corner quietens down enough for the stranger to slip in edgeways. "Can I join in?" he asks. "I play piano, guitar, violin and recorders, all pretty badly. Mostly I just sing." And he does, in a pleasant and obviously practiced bass-baritone. "Music has a strong magic, With longer reach than shining steel. Soldiers respond to the calling, Puppets to the piper's skill." He smiles sheepishly. "Anyone for improvising some harmony?" -- * Rhodri James * "Nothing is forgotten..." * rmj@islay.tcom.stc.co.uk * Mike Whitaker * or * "...except sometimes the words" * ...!mcvax!ukc!stc!rmj * Phil Allcock Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!rutgers!njin!princeton!phoenix!sksircar From: sksircar@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Subrata Sircar) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Hello, hello? Message-ID: <13776@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> Date: 11 Feb 90 04:37:29 GMT References: <9002070935.AA02197@fsdcupt.csd.mot.COM> <1990Feb9.140251.9631@granite.cr.bull.com> Reply-To: sksircar@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Subrata Sircar) Organization: SPAMIT Lines: 43 mwolf@granite.cr.bull.com (Mary-Anne Wolf) writes: >Please, where IS Crossroads actually. If this is the Crossroads I remember, you won't be able to park near there. It is just off of Mass. Ave. going south into Boston from Cambridge on the Harvard Bridge, on the far side of the street, to the right, which crosses Mass. Ave. after the bridge. If all that sounds confusing, here's an attempt at a map... S Tower Records | | | ______________________| | E-|-W | ______________________ N | | Discontinuity.................... ______________________| |___CROSSROADS______________ ______________________ ___________________________ | | | | | | | |_________________________ | (This street is for Storrow Drive (sp?) access) | _________________________ | | Harvard Bridge & MIT | | | \|/ As I recall, the place has a decent all-you-can-eat buffet on Tuesdays and Thursdays... -- Subrata K. Sircar, Prophet & Charter Member of SPAMIT(tm) sksircar@phoenix.princeton.edu SKSIRCAR@PUCC.BITNET BUSH SENDS 500 MPs TO STOP VIRGINS LOOTING - New York Daily News LEBANESE CHIEF LIMITS ACCESS TO PRIVATE PARTS - The Daily Iowan Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!mcsun!sunic!bmc!kuling!jonasf From: jonasf@kuling.UUCP (Jonas Flygare) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Evidence that god is an iron (PUNS) Message-ID: <1393@kuling.UUCP> Date: 10 Feb 90 22:59:07 GMT References: <6754@celit.fps.com> Distribution: alt Organization: Dep. of Computer Systems, Upsala University, Sweden Lines: 22 From article <6754@celit.fps.com>, by kathy@fps.com (the Rev. Mom): ] ] gwh@ocf.Berkeley.EDU (George William Herbert) writes: ] ckd@bu-pub.bu.edu (Christopher Davis) writes: ]]] ]]] ] "I didn't know there was any prescription against puns here!" ]]] ]]]"Ah, that's shed some light on the subject... A cornea pun, true, but of a ]]]rather... vitreous humor. Yes, we have many apt pupils here...." ]] ]]Eye, eye aie. ]] ]]Well, we're shedding some light on another aspect of the true nature of ]]Callahans, I see. ] ] Unbecoming j-ocularity. Iris my case. Aww, c'mon, get outta my sight! True puns got to be according to the spec's.. :-) -- jonasf@kuling.docs.uu.se : "Doedth eddydthig dthrike you adth dthrayge Jonas (flax) Flygare : aboud dthidth houdth?" -- Dirk Gently Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!lakesys!davek From: davek@lakesys.lakesys.com (Dave Kraft) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: How about a midwest Callahan's gathering? Keywords: Callhan's, gathering, midwest Message-ID: <1654@lakesys.lakesys.com> Date: 11 Feb 90 06:34:10 GMT Distribution: usa Organization: Lake Systems - Milwaukee, Wisconsin Lines: 11 How would people feel about having a midwest Callahan's gathering. I would prefer to have it here in Milwaukee (or surrounding suburbs). What does everyone think of that? Dave -- EMAIL: davek@lakesys.lakesys.com |"..let your light shine before men, that uunet!marque!lakesys!davek |they may see your good deeds and praise BELLNET: (414)476-2763 |your Father in heaven." --Mathhew 5:16 USPS: 1952 N. 84th St./Milwaukee, WI 53226 Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!usc!samsung!uunet!88opensi!ed From: ed@88opensi.UUCP (Ed Anderson) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: WAR Summary: Stats Lie! Message-ID: <368@88opensi.UUCP> Date: 11 Feb 90 11:54:11 GMT References: <9060012@hpfcso.HP.COM> <20940037@hplred.HP.COM> Organization: 88open Software Initiative Inc., San Jose, CA Lines: 48 I read this post and found it needing some answers from someone who has been there. I'm a veteran of the U.S. Marines and I've been in combat situations... I've been shot at, and returned fire... I will never be the same... So please permit me to respond to this post with a different viewpoint... All stats aside, minds and spirits are broken... This is usually the disbelief. The inability to cope with unbridled hatred of other human beings, the _desire_ to kill (which, I might add is NOT human nature). In a combat situation, your fears turn to anger, hatred and the unfairness of your being placed there. In that time/reality you see things in a surrealistic way... Your fighting becomes a result of the need to escape. All of the training, preparation and propagandised reasons for being there becomes a program that executes in the background. In your mind you scream, some scream out-loud, some scream after. If I remeber right, I vomited for two hours... I saw the tracers, I know where the rounds hit, I keep telling myself I hit nothing... I'll never know I don't wan't to know (even now it makes me sick to think I could have _wanted_ to kill.) I was on a search_and_rescue team, we picked up alot of wounded men; screaming from pain, dismembered but alive, and dead... dead men who did not deserve to die in such ways as they did... You never forget the _pictures_ of these men. However, the vets that can't put the past aside and go on have good reason. Maybe they saw what was left of a friend after an eight-pound piece of shrapnel hit him at a velocity that could put it through 2 feet of concrete (as some weapons are designed to do)... I don't know if I could handle that, fortunately I never had to. It comes down to this; emotional problems (combat related) usually stem from either seeing and not believing, or doing and not believing that _you_ did it. Background: Beruit, (I lost three friends in the bombing of the barracks) Grenada, (I was a door gunner for a search and rescue helicopter) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Please feel free to respond to me at uunet!88opensi!ed Ed Anderson 88open Software Initiative "We Support RISC Takers" Standards for the 88000 environment. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Path: mit-eddie!mit-amt!snorkelwacker!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!CCB.UCSF.EDU!robin From: robin@CCB.UCSF.EDU (Robin Colgrove) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: SF get-together? Message-ID: <9002112033.AA07676@ccb.ucsf.EDU> Date: 11 Feb 90 20:33:34 GMT Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU Lines: 21 robin staggers back into the bar, beat-up denim jacket over scrubs liberally stained with you'd rather not think about it. "Only good thing about being on the surgery service is that I get to wear pajamas all day long. It's a sign of the infinite powers of habituation that we spent a good deal of yesterday up to our elbows in small intestine, all the while good-naturedly chatting about the merits of our favorite restaurants. Amazing. This is all very interesting in small doses but this Conan the Barbarian approach to medical care is just not my cup of tea. Next month I'm on Family Practice which should give me a chance for novel experiences like sleep....and (as perpetrator of the first callahanians get together, with thirst for human.contact still nowhere near slated ;) arranging the first SF Bay Area callahans.realspace.get-together! How bout sometime in March, somewhere in San Francisco (twixt Stanford and Cal), and something like the first get-together at somebody's house? I'll stop there and open the floor for suggestions..." He seems poised to go on but suddenly a horrendous shrieking is heard from the vicinity of his belt, he pulls out a pager, glares at it, and muttering unmentionables (how do you say these in Esperanto?), bids his adieus to the patrons... Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wuarchive!decwrl!ucbvax!cix.UUCP!thanatos From: thanatos@cix.UUCP Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Ensemble again... Message-ID: Date: 10 Feb 90 04:35:35 GMT Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU Lines: 100 [Noises of steam-driven machinery coming up to speed...] Hello? Testing, testing, 1, 2, 3.... [A flickering image >snaps!< into existence. The colour isn't right and no details can be made out, but this doesn't seem to worry the sender...] Ah, right. That seems to be working now. [Our mailer has just been written... and is now meant to be working...] Sorry, I'm late, but They've only just let us (mail) out... :-) A virtual ensemble... Any room for a virtual drummer.. err.. percussionist in your midst? I've got lots of enthusiasm, but no experience... (I deeply wish I had sufficient space to get a drum kit, but my computer system/book collection/record collection are rather expansive... and I don't think the neighbours would like it... :-) :-) ) ~ Oh, sorry, yes, hello. [The part-formed figure suddenly notices the enquiring glances he's being given and fiddles with the controls you assume are in front of him. The figure flickers to 2d/black-and-white then resolves into a jeans-and-tshirt-wearing young man. A quick guess might put him in his late twenties, but a second glance shows that his beard adds a number of years to his looks. He's dark haired, wearing slightly-tinted glasses and suddenly rather self-conscious and trying not to be...] I'm um.... [This is obviously a tricky one...] well, it'll do for now. You can call me 'Thanatos' - I'll go into why that's my handle sometime. For now, it's the name I _know_ myself as, online. In the 'real' world, many people call me Peter Jones - but quite a few call me 'Than.'... seepage, i suppose :-). As you may have noticed from the message path, I'm from the UK. And, in fact, _in_ the UK. Things: yes, lots of things. Mostly books, records (vinyl!) and computer kit (in that order). So I spend lots of time reading (scince fiction, science fantasy and fantasy - exclusively...), listening to music (from "AC/DC" to "ZZ Top" alphabetically, from "Metallica" to "Suzanne Vega" and in various other directions in style) and using the computer gear. I don't do a lot else... I socialise with people from BBS (two) over here - drinking/role playing/live roleplaying - but that's it, really... (okay, so 50 miles may not sound far to US people... but it's a long way to London from here..! :-) ) Work-wise, I'm a professional computer programmer. Yes, I really _like_ computers. Writing a program that is fundamentally _mine_ and seeing it work is *GREAT*. (Okay, so picking up the pieces a couple of weeks later when it goes "live" can be a strain, but even that's quite fun...) I feel lucky in who I've been working with - from what I've heard and seen around the rest of my work place (big bank computer section), they're great people. Long felt wants (erhem): I wannabe a drummah! But I don't think I could inflict the reality on anyone... anyone at all... ...And I keep telling myself I should get out more and meet people. But, I reply, I don't know anyone around here... Exactly..! But, I reply, I'll be moving back to London Real Soon Now... Mumble, mumble, mumble... (I'm very convincing... :-) ) Oh, and I'd like to point out that, even if I were going slightly bald, I wouldn't be concerned about it at all. So there. [With that, and a grin, he walks confidently to the bar...] MIKE! [he commands.] Sorry. Mike, I'll have a pint of Sam Smith's. Dollar? Sorry... Um... VISA? MasterCard? Sterling? Ah, good. [He hands over a small, golden coin.] Yes, Mike, it's a "pound note"... [Dubiously, Mike accepts the proferred coin. After looking into a few of the many corners, he decides to take a seat facing towards the fire and relax for a while...] ------ e-mail to: {...}!mcsun!ukc!cix!thanatos or: thanatos%cix.UUCP@uck.ac.uk Or call, using the _VIEWDATA_ (also known as Videotext, or even Prestel Emulation) software that you just know you've got hiding somewhere on that VAXCluster: The Dwarfen Realm (24 Hour, V21, V22, V22bis, V23, MNP 5, 7 data bits, Even parity, 1 stop bit, **VIEWDATA**) +44 (0)376 501036 ..if it doesn't answer: 1) You've saved some money 2) The fileserver has died 3) I've turned the hard disk off so I can get some sleep (== "I need a new fan") 4) Due to a little known aspect of SubSpace, your call has been routed to British Telecom Directory Enquiries. Please hold the line, your call has been queued. ------ "Look it up in the index. What? What do you mean 'What index'? It hasn't got an index? Good grief..." "But it's a novel..." "So????" (c)1990 Indices for Everything Campaign