Path: mit-eddie!bbn!granite!mandel From: mandel@granite.cr.bull.com (Mark Mandel) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: More Shared Joy! Message-ID: <1990Mar15.150444.4644@granite.cr.bull.com> Date: 15 Mar 90 15:04:44 GMT References: <9003131231.AA04969@fsdcupt.csd.mot.COM> <16165@haddock.ima.isc.com> <16166@haddock.ima.isc.com> Reply-To: mandel@granite.cr.bull.com (Mark Mandel) Organization: Bull HN Information Systems Inc. Lines: 27 (Silverblack leafs through a copy of the ESNE Newsletter -- Esperanto Society of New England -- and looks over toward Karl(o).) Vi faris gxuste, Karlo. Ne timu! Mi ne diras, ke vi tute trankvilu: iom da nervozo atendendas cxi-tiaafere. Sed, se sxi ne kontaktos vin nek vi vidos sxin, mi pensas, ke vi rajtos sendi mallongon noton al sxi. (As he speaks, subtitles appear below his face. Strangely, they are visible and legible from anywhere in the Place.) You've done the right thing, Karl. Don't be afraid! I'm not saying that you should be completely at ease: some nervousness is to be expected in a situation like this. But if she doesn't get in touch with you and you don't see her, I think you'd be OK sending her a brief note. (Another level of subtitles somehow appears, completely defeating the electronic metaphor: "Esperanto doesn't have the letter x, but USASCII doesn't have circumflexed consonants, so this is one convention to get around the mismatch.") -- -- Mark Mandel (InterNet for a while: mandel@granite.cr.bull.com) /* Bull disclaims all responsibility for me, and I for them. */ Path: mit-eddie!bbn!granite!mandel From: mandel@granite.cr.bull.com (Mark Mandel) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Authors Summary: Lots of room in Earthsea Message-ID: <1990Mar15.151257.6038@granite.cr.bull.com> Date: 15 Mar 90 15:12:57 GMT References: <9060035@hpfcso.hp.com> <1990Mar12.143842.20006@granite.cr.bull.com> <12571@thorin.cs.unc.edu> Reply-To: mandel@granite.cr.bull.com (Mark Mandel) Distribution: usa Organization: Bull HN Information Systems Inc. Lines: 19 In article <12571@thorin.cs.unc.edu> gottscha@dopey.cs.unc.edu (Stefan Gottschalk) writes: >Maybe something like that simply cannot persist when it is recognized >for what it truly is (like the shadow-thing in 'A Wizard of >Earthsea'? ooh!, speaking of authors, has anyone claimed Ursula?). Well, yes (says Silverblack), in that somebody's called for _The Left Hand of Darkness_ and I've got dibs on _Always Coming Home_ and the Earthsea Trilogy, for which a FOURTH book will be out this spring (info courtesy of the Cheshire-cat librarian). But -- to quote a line that Spider must've been thinking of when he wrote that joy shared is joy increased -- "Water divided is water multiplied", and you're welcome to share them with me. -- -- Mark Mandel (InterNet for a while: mandel@granite.cr.bull.com) /* Bull disclaims all responsibility for me, and I for them. */ Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!think!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!wuarchive!psuvax1!xavier!news From: nap92@campus.swarthmore.edu Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: The Cynic rants raves and rages Message-ID: <2HAGGR@xavier.swarthmore.edu> Date: 15 Mar 90 15:35:30 GMT Sender: news@xavier.swarthmore.edu (USENET News System) Organization: Swarthmore College Lines: 39 -Message-Text-Follows- In article <34953@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU>, goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) writes... > > I've read some of the other follow-up messages, so I know I'm one >of many when I say: Cynic, stay. > You threw a grenade yesterday, and I flamed you for it myself. But >I think you need to be here. And that means we need you to be here. If we >turn our backs on you now, then this Place is dead. Worse: then it never >lived. > I don't know. I don't know what I can say to help you. I don't know >that I *can* say anything to help you. I'm not an empath. I don't know how >to reach out to people in need. But if you leave here, it'll be because >you no longer want to stay, and not because you're not welcome. > >David Goldfarb goldfarb@ocf.berkeley.edu (Insert standard disclaimer) >"When your heart broke, it healed all wrong; so we'll break it again and >re-set it." > -- Diane Duane, _The Door into Shadow_ "Hear, Hear!" Nao says as she gets up from her chair. "I guess I don't have anything to add to what others have said in this line. I"m just adding my support to theirs. I have a dear friend who has gotten pretty cynical this last year. I can tell something is bugging her, but she hasn't said anything about it yet. The few times I"ve asked, she's brushed me off. So I'm waiting until she decides to talk about it. But I"m damn well going to be there when she wants to! WEll, I guess that was what I had to say. I hope it wasn't too incoherent, I haven't had my morning cup of tea yet. Speaking of which...." And she goes over to the bar and asks Mike for a cup of Twinings Earl Grey, with some milk and sugar in, putting her dollar down on the bar. When it's ready she takes it back to the table where she and Alex are sitting, and smiles a quirky little smile, as if to say, "I'll be here." *a hug to anyone who wants one* Nao ------------------------------------------------------------------------- | Nao Parkhurst |"Light is the left hand of darkness | | NAP92@campus.swarthmore.edu | and darkness the right hand of light." | | NAP92@swarthmr.bitnet | -Ursula K. LeGuin | Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!mailrus!bbn!granite!mandel From: mandel@granite.cr.bull.com (Mark Mandel) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Grin-- Some Dreams Come True Message-ID: <1990Mar15.151959.7230@granite.cr.bull.com> Date: 15 Mar 90 15:19:59 GMT References: <1990Mar13.220132.25801@sun.soe.clarkson.edu> Reply-To: mandel@granite.cr.bull.com (Mark Mandel) Organization: Bull HN Information Systems Inc. Lines: 30 In article <1990Mar13.220132.25801@sun.soe.clarkson.edu> stadnism@clutx.clarkson.edu writes: >A muffled sigh comes from the side of the room. "Well, almost, but you're >forgetting something; you have three big things going for you that will >*always* help you meet people of any sort: you're interesting, you're fun (and >again, interesting) to talk to, and you're *easy* to talk to. > ..." Do you mean to imply (asks Silverblack) that you think you aren't? I don't know you very much, but that "muffled sigh" sounds unhappy, and I presume to infer. My friend, anyone who finds this Place and stays around it has a LOT going for him. That bespeaks intelligence and an interesting character, and at least the potential of being (fun and easy) to talk to. These last two are partly a matter of social skills, which CAN be acquired: after all, we're not born knowing our society's unwritten rules of conversation! But acquiring social skills requires the investment of nerve: to go out and dare to mingle, and risk rejection. If I am meddling... well, my apologies to you, and my occiput is open to Fast Eddie's blackjack: I haven't been getting enough sleep lately anyway. -- -- Mark Mandel (InterNet for a while: mandel@granite.cr.bull.com) /* Bull disclaims all responsibility for me, and I for them. */ Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: mit-eddie!mintaka!mintaka!jeff From: jeff@au-bon-pain.jj.lcs.mit.edu (Jeff Sutherland) Subject: cynics Message-ID: Sender: news@mintaka.lcs.mit.edu Organization: MIT Lab for Computer Science, Cambridge, Mass. Distribution: alt.callahans Date: 15 Mar 90 12:09:54 Lines: 41 Limper looks up at the preceeding outburst. "You'll pardon me if I don't stand, it's uncomfortable, it also tends to give rise to sermons." He lights a cigarette, pulling the cancerous muck into his lungs. "Cynic, I am still glad you are. Your anger ate apparent nivete and blindness are obvious. I do not wholly agree with your analysis but can appreciate your point. "When you say that one does not need a soulmate you are correct, a soulmate is a gift, one that requires reciprocal giving on your part. However, need tends to become a poisonous grasping that only spells doom for any coupling. For, if you need someone, how can you give back to them, rather say, perhaps, you wish to spend a large slice of your time with someone because when you are with them you feel "happier". Need is a subtractive word. "Actually there is very little that one needs, but the fringe benefits are what make life interesting. After all the place is not needed, in that all of us could physically survive without it, however, I for one am glad its around. "I will not enter into the personal dynamics that seem to be taking place, but Cynic, I will say this. I thought of myself as handicapped for years, but the friend that pulled me out of my own muck thought much as you, and now I can stand on my own. But without that driving, nagging, cynic to keep me going keep me angry, well, I wouldn't be here today, I would have stayed ate hom. "The cynic's perspective is an extrordinary one that is necessary to any functional group. Like the Devil's Advocate in the old Church, one whose position is to always question, never letting the rest of us slide into complacency." Limper leans back drawing on his cigarette, "I'll leave rage and hate for another day." -limper jeff@mcrc.mot.com Path: mit-eddie!wuarchive!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!emory!cambridge.apple.com!bloom-beacon!shelby!csli!cphoenix From: cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU (Chris Phoenix) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: More Shared Joy! Message-ID: <12680@csli.Stanford.EDU> Date: 14 Mar 90 23:49:53 GMT References: <9003131231.AA04969@fsdcupt.csd.mot.COM> <16165@haddock.ima.isc.com> <16166@haddock.ima.isc.com> Sender: cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU (Chris Phoenix) Reply-To: cphoenix@csli.stanford.edu (Chris Phoenix) Organization: Center for the Study of Language and Information, Stanford U. Lines: 68 In article <16166@haddock.ima.isc.com> you write: >He sighs. "At this point, I would assume the next move is up to her. All I >have is her first name, while she has my full name, home address, home phone, >work phone, internet address, and photograph." Yes, it looks like the next move is up to her. Question: What will it be? Answer: I hate to throw a damper on the situation, but quite possibly nothing. A lot of people are quite capable of meeting someone, enjoying their company, having fun, etc., and having no desire to see them again. If she was one of these, she may not try to make a move. >"Firstly. Was I right to leave the ball in her court like that? It was certainly one of the "right" things to do. Another would have been to say, "I really enjoyed talking to you. Do you want to get together for sometime?" That's something only you can decide. >"Secondly. It's not entirely true that I have only her first name. I did >note her address from her luggage, and by comparing the names on the mailboxes >there with the initials in the phone book, I found one match. But since this >information was not volunteered by her nor requested by me, I feel I shouldn't >use it. Agree? Well, I don't know how applicable my experience is, but most girls and a lot of women I know would get freaked by you using it. Some would even think it was rude and decide you were a philistine with no social grace whatsoever, and pushy besides. Then there are the few who would take it in the spirit it was meant, and be slightly flattered, or... I dunno how they'd react. But there aren't that many who would take it positively. Remeber, though, that I'm talking about college girls. Maybe it's different in the Real World. It would certainly be a good test to see if she's rulebound or not... but if you don't want to restrict yourself only to people who aren't rulebound, I'd use it only as a last resort. >"Thirdly. As I was preparing the March issue this last weekend, I saw her >name on one of the mailing labels, meaning she's contacted ESNE (which >automatically gets you one free copy of the newsletter in addition to the >standard information packet). There's a fair chance that she'll be at the >meeting this next weekend, and I'll see her again. I'm scared..." So, it's not last resort time yet. If you see her, just be yourself, strike up a conversation, flirt, make outrageous passes, ... whatever. Don't be scared. Remember, you've already talked, and she seems to like you. Just don't expect her to immediately want to date you. Keep it "strictly friends" for a while, or you will almost certainly freak her. If you don't see her, then maybe you should consider last resorts. You do have an advantage, because you're in a position to know that she's on your mailing list, and to know it legitimately. Maybe you could slip a personal note into the next thing that gets mailed to her, just something Lite (tm) like "So what do you think of Esperanto now? Drop me a note, OK?" Or since there's only one free issue, if she doesn't subscribe, maybe you could send her a Complementary Copy (tm), with another note. This is even better, because it's an Impersonal Gift, with no obligation (since you have an impersonal reason for sending it) but it shows you're personally interested. I'm posting this instead of mailing because I'm often in similar situations myself, and I'm not too confident of my intuition yet. If anyone has anything to add or change about my advice, could you mail me? -- Chris Phoenix | "I've spent the last nine years structuring my cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU | life so that this couldn't happen." ...And I only kiss your shadow, I cannot see your hand, you're a stranger now unto me, lost in the dangling conversation, and the superficial sighs... Path: mit-eddie!mintaka!yale!cs.utexas.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!pt.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!ap1i+ From: ap1i+@andrew.cmu.edu (Andrew C. Plotkin) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Cynics, empaths, whatever I can come up with in the 24 minutes before my next class Message-ID: Date: 15 Mar 90 18:38:32 GMT References: <9060039@hpfcso.HP.COM> Organization: Class of '92, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 56 In-Reply-To: <9060039@hpfcso.HP.COM> And I'll repeat what everyone *else* has said: Cynic, you can't get thrown out the Place for being honest. You can walk out, but I notice that you haven't. You say that you refuse to toast love or soulmates, because there is no guarantee that anyone will find either. (Right?) I think we have a confusion of usage here. If you can talk about yourself, to the extent that you have, to the people here, then you might be missing out on slightly less than you think. > Excerpts from netnews.alt.callahans: 14-Mar-90 The Cynic rants raves and > r.. Doug Quarnstrom@hpfcso.H (12906) > I remember back when I was going with Lyn, or Lynn, or Lynnn, > or whatever the fuck her name was, and I would see guys by > themselves, and I always felt this have and have not feeling > very strongly. I place my flag proudly and firmly among the > have nots. I also am among the "have nots", although I still have hopes of changing that. But I *still* think of myself as immensely lucky; I have many... um... (corniness warning!) friends. (And I would have called them all soulmates, if the word wasn't already in use for something else.) (Damn, now I sound like I'm doing the same thing -- "I've got my friends, why don't you?" To counter this impression, re-check my first paragraph, and the other replies to your posting.) > Excerpts from netnews.alt.callahans: 15-Mar-90 Well again...it is good > to .. Austin H. Ziegler@bucsf. (5456) > "Empaths aren't. I have nothing against empaths, having called > myself one but a couple months ago, but what I've found is that it is > difficult for an empath to truly relate to people. Empaths have a talent > for seeing emotion, and that is it. It is what you do with that emotion > that counts. I've been having difficulty following this thread (that "an empath" is not a useful thing to be.) If you mean "empath" in the sense of "one who is better-than-usual at seeing the emotions of others", I can't see anything wrong with it. The *least* that happens is that you let someone in a lousy mood know that you know that they're in a lousy mood, and I know from personal experience that that's good. (and apropos of nothing but the Duane quotations: ------------------- The gods may have given us fire, but we stole laughter for ourselves. Silence is the door between love and fear; and on fear's side, there is no doorhandle. "Surrender? That'll be the day." -- Jean-Luc Picard ------------------ --Z (and now it's ten minutes *after* my class starts....!) Path: mit-eddie!bu.edu!lll-winken!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!mailrus!iuvax!noose.ecn.purdue.edu!mentor.cc.purdue.edu!gtz From: gtz@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Eric C. Garrison) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Metaphysics and Angst Message-ID: <8505@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> Date: 15 Mar 90 19:10:42 GMT Organization: Purdue University Lines: 52 Eric stands up, finally deciding to go to the chalk line. He looks just as he does in his terminal room: dressed in his favorite Escher T-shirt and a pair of jeans and Nikes. His hair is a bit mussed from the wind outside and he adjusts his glasses without thinking about it. "To pointlessness" <**CRASH**> "Hi. None of you really know me, though you have been friendly, which I appreciate. "However, I find an old problem in metaphysics bugging me: why are we here? What is the point? Why do I bother getting up in the morning? "In High School, I feared going to Purdue because I did not know what I wanted to do with my life. After a year of Freshman Engineering, I discovered that programming was not only my one true love, (well, acedemically speaking), but it was just about the only subject in school I was good at. "Anyway, fomy Sophomore and Junior years I was pretty darned happy. I was engaged and the point to life was to marry my fiancee and live happily ever after, come what may. How sweet. "But at the end of last summer, she left me and pulled the rug out from under my feet, and left me with no goals save graduation. "Sure, I am dating a great girl now, and who knows what will happen with her, but the real problem I face is this: I don't want to graduate because I don't want to face the real world alone. I don't see the point of going out and making money if I don't know if I will be happy. I enjoy computers as an occupation, but I am afraid I'll be alone and unhappy at and away from work. "I wonder if anyone here lies awake in the middle of the night, petrified with fear about the future like I do? Does anyone else see the crap behind all this hype to succeed, to compete, to further the rat race? How can anyone be totally wrapped up in getting a good job, looking for maximum money without considering the happiness factor? "I'll step down now, but if anyone understands this at all, please let me know." He looks exhausted as he goes back to his table. He looks as though he'd like someone to come over and join him, but is too shy to just sit with anyone he'd like t get to know. Maybe you know the feeling. Alone in a crowd, that's Eric, sometimes. Eric C. Garrison ericg@ei.ecn.purdue.edu Path: mit-eddie!mintaka!think!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!ucsd!sdcc6!sdbio2!secbh1 From: secbh1@sdbio2.ucsd.edu (Lori Stahlman) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: My Apology Message-ID: <9062@sdcc6.ucsd.edu> Date: 15 Mar 90 19:15:54 GMT Sender: news@sdcc6.ucsd.edu Reply-To: daq@hpesdaq.hp.com (Doug Quarnstrom) Lines: 133 Hi, folks. Cynic asked me to distribute this for him. He wanted to be sure it reached all machines. --Betsy Bo -------------------------------------------------------------------- Doug enters the bar looking extremely subdued. He finds Taldin and Jilara and Joelle in the crowd and asks to speak to them. He beckons for others to gather around. He begins to speak very slowly and carefully. How can I begin to apologise for my words? I owe a very deep apology to Jilara, Taldin, Alaric, and Joelle. And I owe an apology to the people here as well. You must all understand that Callahan's no flame environment means as much to me as to anyone. I have violated that and said very hurtful words to people who meant me no harm at all. My reaction was totally inappropriate, and it is impossible to explain how deeply I regret it. Aside from the apology, I would like to take this chance to wish an unadulterated congratulations to the new couples. I can only ask your forgiveness, since I cannot really defend my actions. I claimed to be speaking for others in the posting, when I really was just speaking for myself, and I cannot understand at all why I became so vitriolic. The anger just felt so right at the time. The easy answer would assume that I am jealous or envious, but that is really not the case. Have I grown so far from innocent happiness that I react to it with anger? Certainly this is the behavior of a devil. I feel very badly about this indeed. I guess that I am treading the edge of passion far too much these days. I have been posting to Callahan's for several months now, because I really do like an environment where one can discuss anything without risking flames. In flaming I have violated a very sacred trust. I deserve your wrath and ask for your compassion. I cannot even promise never to do it again. I am very passionate and I tend to react to extremes and settle down in the long run. Certainly I will try never to do it again. I had never flamed before this, so it is not as if I do it every day. Certainly I say some things that people take exception to, but that is not the same as flaming. But my past few posts have grown increasingly hostile. I do not know why. Apologies cannot take back words, so I would ask you to reread what I said, and just make an effort to understand what I meant. If you figure it out, maybe you can tell me. If this apology reaches a machine before the posting that made it necessary, you will know it when you see it. Please recognize the continuity involved. I am through flaming. I would like to specifically address a post that Jilara made about my star trek posting: >Jilara frowns. "That granade idea really bombed, Cynic. Do you have >to be such an explosive personality? That really capped things off." Yes, I suppose so the idea did bomb. I am what I am Jilara. I am very angry, but not at anything specifically. I have talked to Chris about my tendency to take offense at things that do not justify the reaction. >She gets up and stalks over to his table, arms folded sternly, her >mouth compressed into a thin we-are-not-amused line. "And I am using >our pun format to try to get things back on track. If you're really >into blasting caps, go play in alt.flame. This is Callahans, dammit! >I consider myself a cynic. You, my friend, are a misanthrope. I've >spent a lot of time disarming misanthropes, and I would sincerely like >to sit here and talk with my friends without any more incidents. Do >we have a truce?" She smiles in a way that folks say gives you cold >chills, her smile that has scared muggers. You begin to realize why >this woman ran SCA security for several years. "If you feel so inclined >again, you can talk to Auntie Jilara about it, or we can hash it out >in the alley. Remember, Callahans has a reputation to uphold." Jilara, you really do not need to defend Callahan's from me. I have already offered to leave. I do not feel quite so bad about this post, because it was, believe it or not, meant as a joke. I actually like Star Trek, but I feel that the original members have sunk into hopeless self-satire. It was meant in fun, and it was a bad miscalculation. I am sorry for this too. I hope that, in this case, there is some allowance for differences in people. You call me a misanthrope. You are technically correct. I do distrust and detest humanity, but I see a difference between the mass and individuals. I do not hate or detest individuals as a general rule. I would, however, request that you not label me without speaking to me first, although you certainly owe me one. >She beckons Nick Chopper out of the fireplace. "Give this man one of >your warm fuzzies. He needs it." Nick carefully places the warm fuzzy >on Cynic's shoulder. "Wait a minute, I've still got two!" he exclaims >in amazement. "You didn't tell me these things reproduced!" Again, I really thank you for the gesture, but if you give me a warm fuzzy, it will turn into a cold fuzzy, and we don't want that. In conclusion, I offer again to leave Callahan's for good as punishment if the clientele deems it necessary. Doug gets up slowly and crosses to Betsy Bo. He looks at her and looks as if he wants to thank her for her sole defence of him, but he cannot say anymore, and he turns and leaves the bar, posting a note on his way out. The note: Goodbye My heart does not feel what my ears have heard, these whole and wholesome, healthy words. Path: mit-eddie!mintaka!think!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!pt.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!haste+ From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Cynic Message-ID: Date: 15 Mar 90 19:29:28 GMT Organization: Graduate School of Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 24 Cynic, I think I see two main messages in your posting. First, you believe that finding a true love is sufficiently difficult and improbable to not be worth the effort and risk -- and that if one does succeed, the game will probably turn out not to be worth the candle. I may not agree, but I don't see this as something one can refute. Second, you seem to find the atmosphere at Callahan's a little too sickly- sweet for your tastes, with overtones of self-pity and hypocrisy. There's something to that, but let me propose a different way to see the same behavior: People here are presenting themselves partly as they are... and partly as the people they'd like to be. Given that people don't have much practice in the latter sort of behavior (the distancing effect of the screen and the net lessens the personal risks associated with this behavior, but also makes it harder to notice one's mistakes) some of what they say and do will tend to ring false. But presenting yourself as what you'd like to be is qualitatively far different from the more general presenting yourself as what you are not -- because you do it by, however tentatively -- becoming more what you wish to become. I meant to ask, why do you call yourself cynic? :-) Dani