Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!philmtl!philabs!ttidca!hollombe From: hollombe@ttidca.TTI.COM (The Polymath) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Who/what I am, and a story ... Message-ID: <8235@ttidca.TTI.COM> Date: 6 Dec 89 03:53:22 GMT Reply-To: hollombe@ttidcb.tti.com (The Polymath) Organization: The Cat Factory Lines: 116 References: Keywords: I don't feel comfortable with the detailed statistics form others have been using. It feels too ... clinical, I guess. So, let me try a different tack. What you see of me here isn't a persona, or, at least, it's pretty much the persona you'd see if we met in person. Maybe I'm a little more thoughtful here because I don't have to think and speak in real time. Maybe a little kinder and gentler, too, but those are the only differences and I like to think they're minor. Otherwise, what I say, and have said, about myself is pretty much what I am. I expect you'll get to know more about me as I ramble on from time to time. (I do have some alter-egos tucked away for special occasions -- you'll know if/when they show up. They aren't subtle (-: ). A couple of pointers, so you'll know something of where I'm coming from: I'm 41 years old. That probably gives me a somewhat different perspective on some things than many of the people here. It may also qualify me as resident old fart. (-: I make no claims to superior wisdom. Some of you may be wondering about my handle. I interpret "polymath" to be a $20 word for "jack of all trades." Hang around me long enough and you'll see it wasn't chosen at random. And now ... Mike? Give me a brew, for I'm about to tell a tale and need to lubricate the works. Ahhh ... thanks. That's good stuff. A toast: To friends and families of all kinds. Ahem ... I'm afraid I'm not much of a punster and I'm saving my riddles for my FRP world, when I get it built. Neither am I a spinner of tall tales and I can't get my guitar playing over the net, so I'm going to try something a little different. I'd like to tell you about one of my former extended families. There've been a few and I may get to all of them eventually, but one per posting is certainly enough. And so, in the spirit of "Joy shared is doubled": Once upon a time, many years ago, a friend of mine named Sandy decided to run away and join the circus. She answered an ad in a local paper offering training on the flying trapeze and similar acts. I was doing some free-lance photography at the time and she invited me up to meet the rest of the act. That's how I met *Del Graham and The Flying Viennas -- The World's Only All-Girl Trapeze Act*. I kid you not. (N.B.: I mean no disrespect by the use of "girl" in this story. That was the name of the act and Del was old enough to call just about anyone a girl. He called me a boy, for that matter. Besides, some of the members of the act were physically girls -- as in pre-teens). Del was a lovable old curmudgeon and a circus person of the old school. He'd spent most of his life traveling with one circus or another, except for his work as a Hollywood stunt man and a few years as a prize fighter. He could tell stories ... Anyway, Del wanted someone to do publicity shots for the act and some training photos as well, so I started to hang around with my camera and sort of became part of things. I helped with the rigging, even went on a brief tour with them, once. (That's when I learned that pulling stakes out of the ground is every bit as hard as pounding them in (-: ). We had some good times. Del could cook, and eat, just about anything and he liked to sneak odd stuff into the pot. One day he took me aside and told me not to tell the girls, but we were having bull penis stew for dinner. He told them _after_ dinner. (-: Evenings were spent sitting around the fire, listening to stories. Other circus folks and stunt people would often come to visit, as well as Del's assorted former wives. Did I mention he'd been married 8 times? Del kept a bottle of Dant's Ye Olde Bourbon Whiskey in the freezer at all times. One of the greatest honors ever accorded me was when he took it out one day, drank a few gulps from the bottle, then offered it to me. That's when I knew I was family. (Kids, don't try this at home. Dant's is truly cheap, foul stuff and only palatable when thoroughly chilled). Of course, Del wasn't the only person there. There were also Sandy and the other girls in the act. Some of them came and went and their memories fade, but I'll never forget Patty, the catcher. She was what really made the act unique. Very few women have the upper body strength to be a trapeze catcher. Patty's the only one I ever heard of. After watching her work, I was _very_ careful _never_ to get her seriously mad at me. (-: Then there was Linda, who kept popping out of the top of her costume, much to her annoyance and the amusement of her boyfriend. And Connie, my other friend, who one day made the mistake of sticking her tongue out at my camera. She nearly broke my shin when I hung the poster on the wall ... (-: And don't forget the animals: A yard full of chickens, roosters and one guinea hen that kept them all in line. A big, shaggy dog the young chicks loved to roost on (you wouldn't believe the picture) and an aging australian terrier -- Del's special pet. The act moved to a ranch in Oregon a few months after I came back from Europe. Then Del's heart gave out on tour and he retired to Florida. If the booze and cigarettes haven't caught up with him, I expect he's there still. (Doctor: "Del, if you keep on like this you're going to die." Del: "I know, doc, but when?"). D*mn! I'm over 100 lines and I've barely given you the cast of characters. There's so many stories to tell ... I guess I'll just have to work them into other postings from time to time. (And this is one of my smaller families. Oy! (-: ). Anyway, enough from me for now. Anyone else have some good times to share? -- The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, hollombe@ttidca.tti.com) Illegitimis non Citicorp(+)TTI Carborundum 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. (213) 452-9191, x2483 Santa Monica, CA 90405 {csun|philabs|psivax}!ttidca!hollombe Path: mit-eddie!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!nisca.ircc.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!jefyoung From: jefyoung@pawl.rpi.edu (Jeffrey Young) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Taldin's Real Identity (*PERSONAL DESC*) Summary: (shrug) "Might as well.." Message-ID: Date: 6 Dec 89 18:49:14 GMT References: <43977@bu-cs.BU.EDU> Distribution: alt Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY Lines: 36 Name: Jeffrey Young (a.k.a. Taldin The Blue Unicorn) Hobbies: Computers, Role-Playing Games, Reading (Fantasy/SF) Singing, Acting, Writing Poems/Stories,Playing my recorder and Juggling,Star-Gazing... Favorite Books:The Apprentice Adept Series,Xanth,DragonRiders Of Pern, to name a few. Sophomore CSCI major at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY Age: 18 (apparent age:14) Sex: Male Height: 5'5"-5'6" Weight: 110-115 lbs Hair: Black. Eyes: Brown. Vision slightly better than Magyk's. Favorite Food: (no, not grass..) Shrimp Lo Mein, Fried Chicken, Spaghetti,Spiked Apple Juice, Manhattan Clam Chowder, Chips Ahoy Cookies -89, and Sour Cream And Onion Potato Chips. Favorite Color: Blue, then Grey Favorite TV Shows: Good question. I haven't watched any TV since last September, really. Favorite Movies: Princess Bride,Star Wars,Back To The Future, Holy Grail,Bill n' Ted's Excellent Adv.,Roger Rabbit Musical Tastes:Just about anything, though straying toward Jazz and Classical, and anything I can tune with on my recorder. Home: New York City, NY Other Information: Empath, sometime psychic,adept video game player, and Wiccan-in-training. (If you don't know what this last -Taldin -Unicorn Defender Of Light "HARM NONE!" P.S. Thanks to Magyk, whose post I used as the tempplate for mine. And also for the archived file.. -- "You are blue, Unicorn.. the Blue of clear, cloudless days where everything seems like it's going right and nothing could go wrong.. and the Blue of despair and lonliness." jefyoung@pawl.rpi.edu Path: mit-eddie!mit-amt!snorkelwacker!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!microsoft!t-phils From: t-phils@microsoft.UUCP (the Eternal Stranger) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Thanks! Summary: You're welcome... Message-ID: <9340@microsoft.UUCP> Date: 6 Dec 89 18:53:18 GMT References: <43863@bu-cs.BU.EDU> Reply-To: t-phils@microsoft.UUCP (the Eternal Stranger) Distribution: alt Organization: Microsoft Corp., Redmond WA Lines: 114 Gilly Rosenthol writes: | "Drinks for everyone, on me!" she | cries. "It's certainly not enough to pay you all back for what you | did for me, but it's a start." "You're welcome, Gilly, any time," says Alaric with a wistful smile. "Where would any of us be if we didn't at least try to help our friends?" | When everyone has a glass in his or | her hand (or paw, or whatever) they turn to Gilly and wait expectantly | for her toast. "To the first law of Callahan's - Shared joy is | increased; shared pain, diminished. It's so very true." And with a | last loving look at the people around her, she drains the glass and | hurls it into the fireplace. A cry of "Amen!" fills the air, and a | barrage of glasses fills the fireplace. Alaric's glass is perhaps a second or so behind the others. He looks unconvinced. He seems about to say something, then thinks better of it. | When the room settles down again, Gilly finds herself at a table with | the group of people describing themselves. "I like that - it would be | nice to have a better mental image of what the people here are like. "Well..." Alaric looks thoughtful. "I suppose Phil spent a lot of time in that back corner, I doubt that anyone really got a good look at him, so maybe I should fill in for him." He shrugs. "He looks a lot like me - or I look a lot like him, depending how you look at it. He's not quite as tall, about 5'10" or so, and he's a lot lighter built. I'd guess he weighs about, oh, 130, maybe 135. He's stronger than he looks, though; good hands to hold a sword." He smiles slightly, almost apologetically. "Of course, that doesn't have much relevance in this day and age, when swords are pretty much obsolete except as museum pieces. Which is a shame, because he's not a bad swordsman. Needs to be more aggressive, though... - oh, sorry - I'm getting off the subject, aren't I? Let me see, where was I... He's kind of quiet, like me, only more so. Keeps pretty much to himself most of the time. He told me once it was because no-one paid attention to him anyway. Matter of fact, one reason I'm describing him now is because he probably wouldn't do so himself, not in detail. He'd tell you something vague about a hard-to-notice guy in dark clothing and leave it pretty much at that. He isn't just being a potato when he sits in the background listening, though; he's thinking, often pretty hard. All too frequently, though, he won't volunteer what he's thinking because he doesn't think it's worth much. When he does, though, it usually makes pretty good sense. To me, at least." He pauses, taking a swallow of his drink. "He likes music, and his musical tastes are pretty broad, though I've heard him say several times that `country music is a contradiction in terms.' You figure that one out for yourselves, because I don't know what he's talking about. He reads a lot, mostly what he calls `science fiction', `fantasy', and `cyberpunk' (whatever in Chaos that is). I've never seen anyone devour a book as fast as he does. He tells me that it isn't speed-reading; he says he lets his mind translate the book into a play or `film' for him, and then watches the play inside his head. I guess that's something like looking at a map and visualizing the terrain it represents." He pauses again. "Let me see - what else is there? I'm finding it surprisingly difficult to describe him properly - can't seem to find much to say about him." He laughs briefly, a short, almost embarrassed laugh. "Never really got done describing him physically, did I? I got side- tracked and never got back on track again. He has kind of greenish, kind of grayish, kind of bluish eyes - you can't really say they're any one color. He says people have told him they change color according to the light and his moods, but I've never seen it... to tell the truth, though, I've never looked. He's taken to wearing his hair a little below shoulder-length the last year or two; he has dark brown, almost black hair, fairly wavy. He says he can't do a thing with it, and I believe him. He's kind of narrow in the face, high cheekbones, deep set eyes (or maybe it's just the shadows under them make them look deep set). Wears a short beard and mustache which makes his face a little less angular." Another swallow of the drink. "He works with computers, so he tells me; sometimes I think he gets on better with computers than with people. He told me the other day he'd never been lied to or ignored by a computer yet; I think he was joking, but I'm not sure. I don't think he was sure either. A lot of times when he says things like that, I don't think he's really sure whether he's joking or not. Personally, I think that if he's joking at all, he's only joking on the surface. It's been a long time since I've heard him laugh." He pauses, looking thoughtful for a moment. "I think that's about all I can tell you about him that's worth telling. I know it isn't any too clear, but I haven't tried to really describe him before; and I know that despite all my rambling, there's a lot less information there that a lot of other people here have told about themselves, but I really don't know what to tell you about him. If there's anything specific I missed that you want to know about him, then my honest suggestion is go ahead and ask him. From what I know of him, he won't mind you asking; and my guess is he'd answer just about any reasonable question you ask him. He's like that. If he considers you're prying, he'll tell you. He won't lie to you, either; honesty is a big thing with him - he has a strong sense of honor. I consider it one of his best qualities." The last mouthful of the drink disappears, and he regards the empty (goblet? glass?) with an approving eye. "He's a good man, although life's treated him a little rough and he's maybe feeling a little fragile lately. And since I have this glass conveniently at hand, I don't think he'd be offended if I make a toast for him." He steps over to the line, and raises the now-empty vessel. "To true friends, the most precious thing you can possibly have - and sometimes, the hardest to find." "Now, Mike, if you'd be so kind as to sell me another... and if you'll permit me, friends," with a nod towards the table where he had been sitting, "a round for those friends whose table I've been sharing... Jilara, and Magyk, and the flying kitten - Melissa, did you say? In fact... if someone will trade me a handful of silver for this gold piece - unless you'd take gold, Mike? - let me buy one all around. It pays to appreciate your friends." -- _________________________________________________________ | Phil Stracchino t-phils@microsoft.UUCP | | "What about me, it isn't fair | | I've had enough, now I want my share | | Can't you see, I want to live..." | | - Moving Pictures | | "If life was simple, everyone would be good at it." | | - The Eternal Stranger | \_________________________________________________________/ Path: mit-eddie!bbn!mailrus!uunet!cbmvax!vu-vlsi!swatsun!hildebrd From: hildebrd@cs.swarthmore.edu (Jeff Hildebrand) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: A heartfelt thanks. Message-ID: <1989Dec6.052553.10462@cs.swarthmore.edu> Date: 6 Dec 89 05:25:53 GMT Reply-To: hildebrd@cs.swarthmore.edu (Hildebaby) Distribution: na Organization: CS Dept., Swarthmore College, PA Lines: 37 Jeff walked back into Callahan's looking happier than he did the last time he showed up. Having walked up to the bar, he slapped down a single and asked for a root beer. In a few minutes he approached the line. First looking bashfully down at the floor, then glancing around, he began to speak quietly. "It's only been a couple days since I first appeared, but I've gotten several responses that have helped enormously. I've been going through mood swings like crazy this semester and I posted at a low moment. As I've discovered, the best thing to do in those cases is to just talk. And it's so nice to find people there who will listen. "To all of you who have responded, thank you. You've helped me and I've enjoyed meeting you. (Jilaria, did my response ever make it?) I'm sticking around. Therefore, I propose a toast. "To those who know how to listen! I hope I can be counted among your number." And the glass joins the other fragments in fireplace. Feeling warm, he removes his sweatshirt, then grins. The others in the Place notice that he's wearing a T-shirt with the name "Hildebaby" emblazoned on the back. Ordering another root beer from Mike, he downs it and quickly returns to the line. "Well, I've noticed that there is at least one other Jeff around here, and probably more. What you see on my back is a name I aquired 6 years ago and use to this day. Feel free to use it." "To nicknames!" -Jeff -- /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ Jeff Hildebrand Swarthmore College, Swarthmore PA 19081 JDH92@campus.swarthmore.edu (prefered) or hildebrd@cs.swarthmore.edu Would you trust a man who | "First things first, but not Path: mit-eddie!mintaka!think!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!snorkelwacker!bloom-beacon!shelby!polya!lucid.com!lucidboston!kdo From: kdo@lucid.com (Ken Olum) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Families Message-ID: <139@boston-harbor.lucid.com> Date: 6 Dec 89 22:49:51 GMT References: <8235@ttidca.TTI.COM> Reply-To: kdo@boston-harbor.UUCP (Ken Olum) Organization: Lucid East, Sharon MA Lines: 47 In article <8235@ttidca.TTI.COM> hollombe@ttidcb.tti.com (The Polymath) writes: >A toast: > > To friends and families of all kinds. > Amen! >And this is one of my smaller families.... > >Anyway, enough from me for now. Anyone else have some good times to >share? It's good to see someone using "family" to mean something more than just your blood relatives, like 'em or hate 'em. There's a lot of different kinds of families in the world, and you can be born into them or adopted or wake up and find yourself in one, or even go out looking to form one. As for me, I've lived in a house with a group of friends for about 10 years, and I wouldn't give it up for anything. It's been different houses, and different people, but it's always been people that I'm close to and they've seemed like family to me. I think I'd go crazy if I didn't have housemates, because I'd be lonely all the time. Even just having other people around, doing their own thing, makes all the difference over being alone. It's not all roses, and sometimes it's pretty damn awful when people in the house don't get along with each other any more. For some reason it always comes down to one person out of a group that isn't getting along with the rest, and that person always feels like an outcast, and everybody is miserable. This has happened before and I'm sure it will happy again and again, but it's worth it to have things work so well the rest of the time. Anyway, it's this arrangement that I base a lot of my strength on and these are the people that I go to for support when I need it, and when I want someone to show off something to or someone to do something with. I think that a lot of my feelings before about not needing the one special person as much have to do with this base. It's also made me wonder whether maybe the one special person could be two or three special people instead, but that's another story and I see Eddie walking over here mumbling something about preaching, so I think I'd better sit down now. Mike sure runs a fine Place here, though, doesn't he? Ken Path: mit-eddie!rutgers!njin!princeton!phoenix!ejalbert From: ejalbert@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Edmund Jason Albert) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Interconnectedness Message-ID: <12007@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> Date: 7 Dec 89 02:49:54 GMT References: <11960@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> Reply-To: ejalbert@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Edmund Jason Albert) Distribution: usa Organization: Princeton University, NJ Lines: 77 In article <11960@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> jmdoyle@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Jennifer Mary Doyle) writes: > >And hello to you over in the corner, discussing politics and education, and >maybe geology. Welcome. From the recesses emerges a figure dressed in jeans and a flannel shirt. He is covered in dust, and from his belt hang both a compass and a strange type of hammer, which looks well-used. Around his neck is a lanyard from which hangs a magnifying lens. He turns to Jen and says "Preferably geology, if there is anyone to discuss it with." Those who look to where he has risen from notice a dusty hat placed on the table, with a pocketknife next to it. He moves towards the counter and asks Mike for water. He then turns and begins to speak. "Jen invited me here, and it's a nice place to be. Never seen a place where people care about each other so much. But in any case a toast is in order, as I've decided to emerge. "I've listened to the conversation on soulmates, and count myself fortunate: I've got one, and even though she's 700 miles away, we still specially understand each other. And I can't complain in the girlfriend department either; I've had two or three and I wouldn't trade those moments for anything. "My reason for being here is friendship. I have a problem making friends. I've only had a few in my life, almost all, for some strange reason, female. You see, my parents divorced when I was sick, and although my mother remarried two years later (as did my dad), I was basically raised by her. I'm an only child, so I never had the experience of getting along with siblings. We, until I was in middle school, never lived in an area where there were kids: either we were on the wrong side of a busy street, or we lived in a town of 6,000 people and I went to school 45 minutes away. Consequently, I never had any kids over -- even just for an afternoon, and never went to there houses. Thus, I never developed the normal social skills. "The problem was exacerbated by an overprotective mother, but I won't go into that now. High school was bearable, because classes and extracurricular activities were structured. But aside from my senior year I couldn't be said to have any social life, not even going out to movies with friends. "College involves living with people, something I have no experience doing. I met some people here through an introduction by an advisor, but I don't do well on my own because I come across as too eager or brusk. In reality, though I am very talkative, I am also very shy. "Anyway, these people were nice, or so I thought. But when we came back from break this year, on the second day of classes they held a meeting with my priest to which I unbeknownst was led. There they said I was self-centered and that I was too 'clingy'. They provided numerous examples, yet they had a misconception. They wanted me to get there hints when I had no experience doing so (sorry, the above there should be their). Also introduced was this conception of personal space, something I really did not understand, since I have always wanted people around. "Another problem broached was the nature of friendship. They claimed that I placed expectations on them that were unreasonable and that they couldn't live with. I was always taught that friends were trustworthy and honest and loyal, and failed to see how one could be friends otherwise. "I could go on, but I have too long, so now a toast: TO FRIENDSHIP, MAY ALL OURS BE TRUE. " He turns over to Jen, smiles grimly, then sits down. Jason Albert Princeton University Path: mit-eddie!bu-cs!lll-winken!uunet!shelby!csli!cphoenix From: cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU (Chris Phoenix) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Interconnectedness Message-ID: <11323@csli.Stanford.EDU> Date: 7 Dec 89 06:58:35 GMT References: <11960@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> <12007@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> Sender: cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU (Chris Phoenix) Reply-To: cphoenix@csli.stanford.edu (Chris Phoenix) Distribution: usa Organization: Center for the Study of Language and Information, Stanford U. Lines: 238 This started as a posting, then became a letter, and now it's a posting again. It's *very* long. The first half is the story of my social development. The second half is social rules that I've learned for dealing with social settings where masks are required. If you don't want to read all of it, just hit 'j' or 'n'. In article <12007@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> you write: >"My reason for being here is friendship. I have a problem making >friends. I've only had a few in my life, almost all, for some strange >reason, female. Same here... also, my female friends are often the kind that other women hate/are jealous of on sight... just because they're too competent/beautiful/ intense. Probably because that's the only kind that I don't scare away... You mentioned an overprotective mother. I don't want to get Freudian here, but mine was overprotective too, and I didn't really have a "manly" role model. I suspect that's why so many of my friends are female--I just never learned to like drinking, or sports, or cars, or ... I think I have more common ground with women than with most men. >although my mother remarried two years later (as did my dad), I was >basically raised by her. That's pretty much what I was talking about... >I'm an only child, so I never had the >experience of getting along with siblings. I have a younger brother. He was *very* hard to get along with--everyone in my family had trouble dealing with him. He's gotten better now, but I've often wished I'd been an only child. The experience I got dealing with him didn't help my social skills at all. > We, until I was in middle >school, never lived in an area where there were kids: Again, very similar. We lived in a small city till I was in 3rd grade, and the kids there weren't nice. Then we moved to the country, where there were maybe 3 my age within a square mile. The middle and high schools were in another town, so that made it even worse. I never had any kids over either. And I skipped kindergarten. But even in first grade, I didn't have the social skills I needed. Part of the problem was that my parents had taught me to read etc before I started school, so that turned a lot of the kids off. The problem got worse year by year, until by the time I got to high school I was totally dysfunctional socially--had basically no friends, and honestly didn't care. Another part of the problem, I think, was that I was very innocent about sexual things in grade school (overprotective mother again) and so kids could always embarrass me easily. Once they learned this, I spent a lot of my time being embarrassed. >"College involves living with people, something I have no experience >doing. I met some people here through an introduction by an advisor, >but I don't do well on my own because I come across as too eager or >brusk. In reality, though I am very talkative, I am also very shy. College... here's where the fun starts. Having skipped 3 grades by that time, including 12th, I was just starting to get interested in girls when I went to college. I think that's what finally brought me out of my shell--that, and being away from my brother. My first year, I went to a special program designed for kids who skipped 12th grade. It was just what I needed. (The program was at Clarkson, not Stanford--I transferred here after that year, as a sophomore.) We were regular freshmen academically, but the "schoolies" lived in separate housing and had extra administrative attention. Everyone was expected to be immature, and they had extra counselors for us who did a pretty good job of eliminating mental cruelty. Also, I was even luckier than most of the others--I had a single, so I didn't have to deal with a roommate. When I went to college, I knew I had a chance to make a fresh start, to relate to a whole new group of people who didn't know how socially screwed up I was. So I decided to start watching them, and learning how to behave. It worked pretty well, and I learned fast. By the end of the year, I think I was as adept socially as an average schoolie. I had made several good friends as well. > self-centered ... 'clingy' ... personal space ... expectations I ran into the same thing. I didn't realize it until just this year, which sort of surprised me since I'd been at Stanford interacting socially for 2 years. It was rather a shock when I realized it, but it's true: Lots of people don't want to be friends, and lots of them are actually afraid of being friends. The "personal space" thing was the hardest for me to deal with, because it's totally outside my experience. I was really depressed for a lot of this quarter, and finally decided that it simply wasn't worth dealing with undergrads. I don't reject friendship, but I'm not trying to gain friends among them anymore. I've just had too many senseless rejections, scared too many people, wasted too much time, and had to learn too many rules. I found the rules really hard to deal with, but for a while I tried to learn them--even getting counseling from my friends on how to be more socially acceptable. Then one day I realized that even around friends, I couldn't stop using these rules and playing these games. That's the point at which I decided that it wasn't worth it. I'm still learning the rules, but I'm not practicing them anymore. I've replaced them with one very simple one: If I don't know someone, he probably doesn't want to talk to me. This is actually a very successful rule. If I try to be friends with people, I scare them just like you do. If I just say "hi" and be polite, but don't try to be friendly to them, they start thinking I'm a nice guy and wanting to be friends with me. I don't know why this works. One of the rules I learned was to "mute" my emotions and my reactions--this was supposed to make me "cool". But if I don't try to be friendly, I guess that "mutes" me by about the right amount. I couldn't do this if I didn't have other people to be with. In my case, it's grad students plus the few real friends I made during the last 2 years. Grads tend to not get as freaked out by me, and to be more open and require less personal space. > I was always taught that friends were trustworthy >and honest and loyal, and failed to see how one could be friends >otherwise. That's what I thought too. One of the most depressing things I had to realize this quarter was that most of the people I thought were my friends were really only just acting friendly. This is something that comes naturally to most people, or else they've practiced it a lot--I suspect the latter. Anyway, people can be very friendly as long as it doesn't cost them anything. I know it's dishonest, but that's the way they are. Then when I try to invoke any friendship, to invade their personal space in any way, I find out that they aren't really my friend. And there's so many ways to invade personal space... ask for a favor, start to tell them about any problem no matter how trivial, even sit down too close to them (I'm told 2 feet is "way too close"--that means you can't even fit 3 people on a sofa!). Anyway, the only advice I can give is to try to find some people who have outgrown this stage of being totally a social construct and of being scared by any contact. There's not too much you can do with "friends" like yours except ignore them. Maybe I'm being too harsh on them, but your posting sounded like they didn't even think they should be expected to be truthful with you. That is not a friend. You should probably keep practicing your social skills, but be careful not to use them too often--it's a very bad habit to get into. And remember that anyone you meet, especially undergrads, is probably putting up as much of a social mask as you are. Don't assume friendship, because it's usually not there. If you want to make friends worth having, just be yourself, and whoever you don't scare off is probably a worthwhile friend. Be polite--for example, if you swear a lot or something, try cutting that down--but don't put up a mask. But if you want to be popular... Here are some of the more useful rules I've learned... if you practice these, you should be able to be "socially correct" in most settings, although you're probably less likely to gain any true friends from people you practice these on. Learn and obey the personal space rules. Watch other people, ask a few of them, find out what is a violation of personal space--and don't ever do it, even accidentally. Touching people, especially women, is a violation. Offering backrubs, for example, is one of the scariest things you can do, and even if they accept--and enjoy it--they will probably become scared of you later. Learn how to make smalltalk. Never talk about unpleasant subjects. Sports are good, if you know enough about them (I don't.) Learn how to close a conversation. Be very careful when walking with people. If they think you're following them, they'll freak. Even if you're in the middle of a sentence, if your paths split, don't walk with them for a while more--even if you have nothing to do! I'm told you should just slow down, and close off the conversation quickly. Learn how to say "Hi, how's it going?" "Pretty good" "That's good". The proper way is very bright and cheerful, with lots of inflection in your voice. Don't say the words like they have any significance at all. I think I actually get better results when I don't meet people's eyes while I'm saying it. The best way to learn this is to watch other people. Also, don't assume if someone says "Hi" that they want to talk. Just say "Hi" with a very big smile, as though you're delighted to see them--but you don't care about interacting with them. I know it's sick, but that's the way to do it. With women, be very careful they don't feel threatened. Don't do anything to make them think you might be hitting on them. Violating personal space is often seen this way. Don't be obviously trying to make friends. This could be why they say you're too "clingy". It's OK to want to meet people, but not OK to want to be friends with them. Friends are an invasion of personal space. This one is pretty important: Mute your emotions. I mentioned this above too. Emotion is also an invasion of personal space, if it's too intense. Whatever you do, don't be too intense. People find that very hard to deal with. Just picture all your reactions painted in light pastel colors. Don't offer too much help. I don't know if you do this, but I had problems with it. If you offer help to someone you don't know, they'll wonder what your game is. It won't occur to them that you might actually like helping people... Be careful even if you think you've gotten past the social mask. It will be up again soon, and people will be very scared of you if you cause them to remove it temporarily, or even if you see them without it. The backrub thing is a good example. If you're giving a backrub to a casual acquaintance, don't give a really good one--you might break down the mask, and then when it comes up again they'll avoid you from then on. Also, if someone is in a vulnerable position, such as being really tired or upset, be careful how you pry. You might be able to get past the mask, and that might feel like a good thing. But then the next day, they'll remember that you can get past their mask, and they'll stay away from you. This doesn't always happen--if someone is upset, they may be grateful for someone to talk to--but don't always assume that getting past masks is a good thing. Keep your interactions on a superficial level. People don't like having to think about social interactions. Don't expect anything important to happen, and definitely don't try to make something important happen. This point is closely tied to the next one. Above all, don't do anything extraordinary. Don't do anything that a "socially correct" person wouldn't do. It's very unnerving, because if you do something unexpected they might be put in a situation that their social mask can't handle. This is a disturbing prospect, and people will stay away from you if they think you might do that to them. There are some areas where you can get away with more than in others. For example, dressing wierd is OK, at least at Stanford. It won't turn people off, because while it may be unusual they know how to deal with it. But if you start to talk about a serious subject, they don't know where the conversation might go, and so they don't feel safe talking about it. Around here, no one talks about their troubles, so doing that is extraordinary. If you'll tell strangers about your problems, who knows what you might say??? And last, don't be too quick to drop the rules. If you think you've made a friend, fine... but if they became your friend while seeing this mask, they'll probably freak if you drop it all at once. A couple of warnings on the above rules: They're only useful in certain cases. In my experience, most undergrads follow them and expect you to too. But *don't* use them on your friends, and be *very* careful not to get so used to them that you can't drop them entirely. The personal-space rules are the ones I find the hardest to get rid of--I almost flinch when a woman touches me at a party, because I know if I touch a woman at a party, even accidentally, she'll probably get freaked. I am not happy about this at all. If your mask isn't stuck on already, don't let it become that way. You will find a few people who you don't need a mask for, and it's very important to be able to take it off when you can. Also, I hear that when you get out into the real world they aren't used nearly as much, so you'll probably want to drop most of them then. If anyone's gotten this far, I'd really appreciate comments on the rules-- Do you think they're correct? Do you have any others to add? Do you think they should ever be used? >"I could go on, but I have too long ... If you think you went on too long... >TO FRIENDSHIP, MAY ALL OURS BE TRUE. Amen! -- Chris Phoenix | A harp is a nude piano. cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU | "More input! More input!" Life is the only game in which the object of the game is to learn the rules. Disclaimer: I want a kinder, gentler net with a thousand pints of lite. Path: mit-eddie!mit-amt!snorkelwacker!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uwm.edu!rpi!jefyoung From: jefyoung@pawl.rpi.edu (Jeffrey Young) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Interconnectedness Message-ID: Date: 7 Dec 89 15:38:36 GMT References: <11960@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> <12007@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> Distribution: usa Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY Lines: 46 The Unicorn they call Taldin stands, walks up to Edmund, and stands before him. He rears up, dark blue mane flaring white with silver, and places his forehooves squarely on Edmund's shoulders. The 'corn looks straight into his eyes, and speaks. "Not everyone has a personal space, my friend, not everyone is wary of those they do not know. I am one such, who trusts as you trust, who believes in fast acquaintances and strong friendships. 'Course, it's always the opposite with me and others -- I try to be noticed, and they try not to notice me. Do something that's you, and that marks you as something special. Anyone who is remotely interested in what you have or do will come talk to you, or at least say "Hi, that's neat." Me, I joke, juggle or play the recorder (not all at the same time..) and don't conform with the crowd. True, it feels like you're dancing naked (the unicorn pauses to notice he isn't wearing anything in this form anyway..) and a stranger in that crowd, but if you keep it up it'll pay off. There are people out there at that party just as friendly as you, but they're a whole world shyer, and unless you show them that you aren't and are willing to make yourself look silly to attract attention, then they'll come to you. It works-- I keep getting invited to parties.. ..though I miss my comrade in arms, Oath Friend and the only person who could be sillier than I could-- "Dragon." The unicorn takes his hooves off Edmund and drops to the ground. "Though I have to admit, it makes me look like a kid, and isn't effective at attracting those of the opposite sex. I am not really impressive looking, or handsome, by human standards, and am that sort of lonely that can only be erased by a girlfriend. I wait for what may never come, but I'll wait! Unicorns are immortal-- they have the patience of almost that much." "I guess what I'm trying to say is sometimes they have to see you're willing to drop your defenses before they drop theirs. At worst, you look like a fool, but at least you have fun doing it." -Taldin . -Unicorn Defender Of Light -- "You are blue, Unicorn.. the Blue of clear, cloudless days where everything seems like it's going right and nothing could go wrong.. and the Blue of despair and lonliness." jefyoung@pawl.rpi.edu Path: mit-eddie!mintaka!think!snorkelwacker!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!emory!hubcap!dkarres From: dkarres@hubcap.clemson.edu (Dean Karres) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Good Times Message-ID: <7370@hubcap.clemson.edu> Date: 7 Dec 89 18:04:38 GMT Organization: Clemson University, Clemson, SC Lines: 70 A toast to "Good Times" (no, not the TV show, silly) I had started to write the equivalent of a "good cry" until the Ploymath spoke. The preceding toasts and stories have all touched me deeply. Some are so close to my own version of loneliness, pain and heartache that it takes me several tries to read them all the way through. So, instead of echoing the sad side of me across the ether, I'll say it as succinctly as possible. Who am I? I am 28. I am blessed with a few true-blue friends. I do not know of anyone that I actively dislike or who actively dislikes me i.e. I have no known enemies. I have never been in a fight. I have never been in *love* (lust-yes, deep like-yes, extreme adoration-yes, mutually offered and returned love-no). I have been called quite and reserved. I have been called a *nice guy*. I am not a competitor, I'm not a wimp, I just deal with confrontation by withdrawing from or avoiding it. If I can't withdraw then I prefer to have it over with ASAP whether I "win" or "lose". I am legally blind (20/200 both eyes with glasses). I flunked out of college but rebounded enough to get into grad school [maybe this makes me a masochist too ;-)] I have scads and scads of favorite things [scads = lots] like: watching fireworks displays; sitting in the rocking chair on the porch of my big sister's old house in the country and listening to Neil Young; the feel- ing of exhilaration, energy or Ki after a really good workout; finding, reading and thinking about the latest Orson S Card book or most any book for that matter, the color [bear with me a sec, I'm color blind but still...] of the sky when it is sooo bright and clear that I can imagine that when I look up I can almost see stars if it were not for the sun [ok, ok I *know* if it weren't for the sun it would be night and I *could* see stars, it's just that shade of blue that teases me so]; the sound of water running past in a brook or stream or over a waterfall [not out of my kitchen sink which is clogged with whatever crap my room- mate has managed to pour down it]; *seeing* birds, squirrels, bugs, worms or other creatures in their natural habitat, this is a rare oc- currence for me - I can hear them moving [ok, not the worms and bugs un- less they are REAL BIG ones ;-) ] but I hardly ever actually see them [zoos are out since I just feel depressed for the critters]; seeing clouds from the top as in from an airplane; seeing the moon shimmering on the surface of the water from 100 ft. below; seeing any tiny detail on another person i.e. being close enough [and this is VERY close] to see the pulse in the neck or see the wrinkles form and relax around an eye. As the song says these are a few of my favorite things. I think that if I were able to list all of the terrible things that I dislike and match them against the list of all the things I do like, the balance would be in favor of the I Likes. What more could I ask for? It is my own fault if I sometimes loose sight of this fact and wallow in the hurt; but, then that's part of life too. Anyhow, as I was saying, after Poly's request for Good Time stories, I started thinking about how good the overall picture of my lot is. Thanks Poly! That's just what I needed as finals are cranking up here shortly. My good time story(s) will start after finals. Mike? Another of whatever is closest to your most competent hands if you will... Another toast To experience, hindsight and good and bad everything. We would all be less without them. To all a good night. I will be back briefly after exams and before Xmas. Take care... -- dean...k... || || Slow ahead! .signature under construction dkarres@hubcap.clemson.edu || || Path: mit-eddie!mit-amt!snorkelwacker!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!mailrus!iuvax!rutgers!njin!princeton!phoenix!sksircar From: sksircar@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Subrata Kumar Sircar) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Interconnectedness Message-ID: <12020@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> Date: 7 Dec 89 17:24:43 GMT References: <11960@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> <12007@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> <11323@csli.Stanford.EDU> Reply-To: sksircar@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Subrata Sircar) Distribution: usa Organization: SPAMIT Lines: 128 cphoenix@csli.stanford.edu (Chris Phoenix) writes: >people don't want to be friends, and lots of them are actually afraid of >being friends. The "personal space" thing was the hardest for me to deal >with, because it's totally outside my experience. I was really depressed >for a lot of this quarter, and finally decided that it simply wasn't worth >dealing with undergrads. I don't reject friendship, but I'm not trying to >gain friends among them anymore. I've just had too many senseless rejections, >scared too many people, wasted too much time, and had to learn too many rules. ...[Other discussion deleted] >I couldn't do this if I didn't have other people to be with. In my case, >it's grad students plus the few real friends I made during the last 2 years. >Grads tend to not get as freaked out by me, and to be more open and require >less personal space. It's probably a question of maturity. As an undergrad, social success is the goal - not necessarily making friends, but not (not having friends). If you have people who say "Hi" in the halls, and to chat with on occasion, or people to see a movie with - light, casual type stuff - you're not losing the game. This is not my game now, nor was it my game when I was an undergrad, nor was it the game of my friends who were undergrads - but I saw a lot of people play this game. >> I was always taught that friends were trustworthy >>and honest and loyal, and failed to see how one could be friends >>otherwise. > >That's what I thought too. For me, that is the only way to be a friend. I will be trustworthy and honest and loyal with my friends, regardless of how they are (of course, too many lies, etc. and they won't be friends) towrads me, because I feel that is the right way to act. Of course, this doesn't make the rules any easier... > With women, be very careful they don't feel threatened. Don't do >anything to make them think you might be hitting on them. Violating personal >space is often seen this way. Amen. Unfortunately, this blocks any attempt at becoming intimate, which is often a desirable social goal. Of course, that's what the mask is there to prevent - intimacy and openness, because those can lead to pain. > Don't offer too much help. I don't know if you do this, but I had >problems with it. If you offer help to someone you don't know, they'll >wonder what your game is. It won't occur to them that you might actually >like helping people... This one sucks. I can never obey this rule. I feel truly satisfied by being able to make a difference in somebody's life, and other people don't seem to be able to understand that. I do like helping people for their own sake - that is why I tutor, hang around helping people in the lab/library, and many other things... >The backrub thing is a good example. If you're giving a backrub to a >casual acquaintance, don't give a really good one--you might break down >the mask, and then when it comes up again they'll avoid you from then on. >Also, if someone is in a vulnerable position, such as being really tired or >upset, be careful how you pry. You might be able to get past the mask, and >that might feel like a good thing. But then the next day, they'll remember >that you can get past their mask, and they'll stay away from you. This >doesn't always happen--if someone is upset, they may be grateful for someone >to talk to--but don't always assume that getting past masks is a good thing. > Keep your interactions on a superficial level. People don't like >having to think about social interactions. Don't expect anything important >to happen, and definitely don't try to make something important happen. Superficial things are easily absorbed by the mask, which is there to protect its wearer from pain. Someone who gets past the mask is a threat, because a) they've seen what you're really like, and may have seen something bad, embarrassing, disgusting, etc. b) they have forced you to see them as a real person, and not just a faceless cipher with a mask and certain protocols for social interactions... c) A rejection from someone who's penetrated the mask can't really be brushed away, because they've rejected YOU. Not the mask, not just you on a bad day, but you as you really are. They are a real, breathing person, not someone who you can label and reject and throw away the rejection but someone who matters, and who has seen part of you, and rejected it. That hurts, and so people wear masks. >A couple of warnings on the above rules: They're only useful in certain >cases. In my experience, most undergrads follow them and expect you to too. >But *don't* use them on your friends, and be *very* careful not to get so >used to them that you can't drop them entirely. If you can't get rid of these rules, then you can't ever make a true friend. True friends know and understand you, not the mask. That's a penalty I don't ever want to pay... >Also, I hear that when you get out into the real world they aren't used >nearly as much, so you'll probably want to drop most of them then. In the "real world" (or so I hear, I'm still in grad school :<) there are other rules governing social interactions (such as what your business relationship is, where you are (cafeteria v. boardroom), and what the situation is (casual conversation or discussion of work_). These rules carry their own masks, and so the ones you used as a student don't need to apply any more. Also, these new masks are used less but on a regular basis (9-5) and so are easier to put down for a friend. Lastly, in theory people in the "real world" are more mature and tougher, since they've been rejected before, and have some sense of self-worth (they have a decent job, if nothing else) and so are less afraid of risking embarrassment or hurt. >If anyone's gotten this far, I'd really appreciate comments on the rules-- >Do you think they're correct? Do you have any others to add? Do you >think they should ever be used? If I had my way, I'd get rid of most of them, but people would just evolve new ones. I don't know if they're all correct, but most of them seem to reflect part of what I didn't like about students in high school... One last thing: the rules break down under pressure. At MIT, where people always seemed to be under pressure, you just couldn't keep the mask up very long. Hence, I made some of the best friends I've ever had, and got to know them very well. You'll hear a lot of people from MIT say, "It was hard but the people made it all worthwhile." That was one side-benefit I didn't really expect. Every cloud has a silver lining, I guess. Wait, what's this glass in my hand? Oh, Well, a toast? Ok... "To Life. May the bad times be overwhelmed by the good... And Soon!" <*CRASH!*> Subrata K. Sircar, Prophet & Charter Member of SPAMIT(tm) sksircar@phoenix.princeton.edu SKSIRCAR@PUCC.BITNET "If my life was half as interesting as other people DREAMED it..." - R"BD"D Disclaimer: As if anybody/anything would want me speaking for them...