Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!usc!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!columbia!cunixf!shoulson From: shoulson@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu (Mark E. Shoulson) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Tall Tale Message-ID: <1989Dec17.024812.25789@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu> Date: 17 Dec 89 02:48:12 GMT Organization: Columbia University Lines: 42 Mike, a beer, if you please.... I just thought you'd all want to hear about this great act I saw in the circus a few days ago. "The circus??" you ask. "Don't you have finals?" Well, yes I do, but a friend of mine *insisted* that I go with her. She actually grabbed my jacket and >pulled< me along with her! She really had my by the mohairs [Ducks shower of peanuts easily, as he makes a poor target] ["I'm lapelled!" says Doc Webster, who presents a better one. After a few more shots from various people, order is again restored] Anyway, we got in a little late, so I didn't have time to buy a program. The circus was pretty good, but fairly standard. All of a sudden, the light went very dim, and a spotlighted announcer asked for our attention. "LAYDEEZ AND GENTLEMEN! [standard circus announcer stuff...] THE MOMENT YOU'VE ALL BEEN WAITING FOR! OUR PRIZE ACT IS ABOUT TO BEGIN! WITHOUT FURTHER ADO, I PRESENT--GLEN!!!" Not having a program, I didn't know who this Glen character was or what was so great about him. He walked out, dressed in a standard flashy costume. I noticed that he couldn't have been more than 20 or so. I also noticed that his eyes hardly ever moved, and never blinked. It was eerie. Then they wheeled out an enormous tank of boiling oil. You could feel the heat in the bleachers. Floating on the oil (somehow) were two or three otherwise normal-looking couches. This was getting weird. Then, with appropriate music, Glen began his act. He was doing acrobatics on the couches! Jumping easily over the hot oil! I was truly impressed. After the act, I finally got hold of the program. I looked in and found the main event's entry: THE STARING YOUNG GLEN ON THE FRYING SETEES ~mark o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o o Mark Shoulson: shoulson@cunixf.cc.columbia.edu shoulson@cunixf.bitnet {...}!rutgers!columbia!cunixf!shoulson Path: mit-eddie!rutgers!cs.utexas.edu!samsung!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!lavaca.uh.edu!elroy!cosc5sh From: cosc5sh@elroy.uh.edu (Unbeliever) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Cheers Message-ID: <5256.258acdb8@elroy.uh.edu> Date: 17 Dec 89 05:20:23 GMT Organization: The Land Lines: 48 The Unbeliever looks strange tonight. At first, nobody can tell what it is that is different. Then, of course, they do. He doesn't look like his mind is on something else. His eyes are clear, and his expression, far from his usual scowl, looks like he's actually trying to grin. A few of the more nervous patrons of Callahan's start making warding gestures, as though to fend off any spirits who may have possessed him. His ring glows brightly, as it tends to do when the Unbeliever experiences any strong emotion. Mike arches an eyebrow, and the Unbeliever nods, a twinkle of reflected ring-light in his eye. Picking up his eggnog from the bar (sheesh, Mike is fast!), he swirls it and begins to speak: "Gentlemen. Ladies. Furries. (What? No aliens in the bar yet?) [The Doctor materializes in his Tardis, sticks his head out, says, 'Well, I, for one, am not a native of this backward planet, no matter WHAT Peter Cushing says!', ducks back into the Tardis, and vanishes again]. Aliens! (Thanks!) I propose a toast (hope you're not thirsty, 'cause it's a lulu):" "To the end of a semester: Here's to the failures, the successes, (the failures), and just plain muddling through. We'll look back and laugh at it all someday." "To the end of a year: Doesn't seem like it's been a whole year since last year at this time. Here's to goals and dreams a step closer to being fullfilled. Here's to the new people we met, and the old friends still remembered." "To the end of a decade: Here's to the miracles we've witnessed in the 80's. Gorbachev's reform of the USSR... the space shuttle... the end of the Moral Majority (may the Klan soon follow in their footsteps), and of course, the destruction of the Berlin Wall... Here's to the end of repression, and to the faint stirrings of potential. Here's to the further miracles the 90's are sure to bring." "To the hope of a better tomorrow, and to the long life of the galaxy's greatest cross-time saloon. To Callahan's!" Unbeliever raises his mug in toast, lowers it, finishes his eggnog in one long gulp, and hurls the empty mug at the fireplace. *CRASH* Be True... -=*> Unbeliever <*=- +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |InterNet: cosc5sh@elroy.uh.edu UUCP:...texbell!uhnix1!elroy.uh.edu!cosc5sh | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ Path: mit-eddie!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!ucdavis!pollux!ez000691 From: ez000691@pollux Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Growing Up Summary: Oh my dear lord, it's me... Keywords: unrequited love Message-ID: <6301@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> Date: 18 Dec 89 03:43:01 GMT References: <10290@pucc.Princeton.EDU> Sender: uucp@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu Reply-To: ez000691@pollux (Shadow) Followup-To: alt.callahans Organization: University of California, Davis Lines: 104 In article <10290@pucc.Princeton.EDU> ASANNUTI@pucc.Princeton.EDU writes: > I don't really know what's wrong with me, or what I'm asking advice about. >Basically, I can't even think about her and him together without crying, which >happens to be threatening to short out the keyboard right now. I don't really >know how I feel about her, but no matter what, I do love her. The question is >whether it is as a friend, or as something more, something different. "My friend, you have found one of the few people in the universe who knows *exactly* what you are talking about," Shadow says, drifting over to the speaker. "I know you didn't come here to hear 'That happened to me, too,' but it did, and it is, and it has been, and it's going to continue, and there isn't a thing I can do about it. "You talk about love as a friend, or as something more. I've got my own opinions about 'love', and one of them is that there's very little dif- ference between what most people mean by 'love' and what they mean by 'Love' (aka something more, in love, or what have you). It sometimes keeps me sane to think of the difference resting solely in whether or not your feelings are returned. "If terminology could make you feel any better, then you care for Jen, but you don't love her. If you're like me, though, that doesn't mean a damned thing -- you love her and you don't care about semantics or what the rest of the world thinks or any of that nonsense. It comes down to whether you would rather spend your time making yourself happy or making her happy, and that's not a tough question." > After talking to many of my friends, my family, and, though not recently, he >r, I've decided that I'm entirely too dependent on her, and she's dependent on >me, in her own way. We should become seperate people and lead seperate lives. > I cannot continue seeing her with him, but I don't want to loose her friends >hip. She is starting to resent me because of my dependency on her, and I don't >want to her to hate me. In high school, I probably would have considered my bes >t course of action to be suicide. I am stronger than that now, though only sli >ghtly. My friends tell me that my best course of action is to seperate myself >from her, and try to grow as my own person. Maybe, if I am not as dependent on >her, she would like me more. I don't know. "'Me, too,'" Shadow quotes, and half-smiles wryly. "Let me save you a lot of time, though: it probably won't work. Particularly if you're still at the same school. I had three months on a different coast, more than once, and it didn't help; every time I thought I was 'over' her I saw her again... "You need to find some way to relax your dependency, as you call it, without relinquishing her company altogether. As for her resentment, don't worry until it reaches the 'Why are you following me around?' stage...which, if it does, heaven forbid, will certainly conclude your difficulties (at least for almost a year, which is what happened to me). "Please don't make either of the mistakes I made: don't cut her off completely, for any length of time, but don't cling desperately to her, either. Find the happy medium. I wish I could be of more specific help, but, as I said, I blew it. "Whatever you do, discard suicide as an option, immediately. You can live without her. You won't have to, but if everything came crashing down around your ears, you could go on. You *could*. Use logic, if you wish, as there are a couple of beautiful arguments for living, but it's better to just feel it in your gut. "My suggestion is to find some way to school yourself to the idea of seeing them together. It hurts like hell, I know, but it's the best and safest way to keep her friendship. And it sounds like it's worth it. And I'm afraid the best way to do that is just to go places where you know you'll see them together, preferably *with* them and not separately. If that's too much to handle at first, then stick to phone calls for a while: it's casual, non- threatening, and you run no risk of running into her boyfriend. I said 'non- threatening' because one of the ways to make someone resent you is to make them think you're coming between her and the object of her affections." > I do love her. Right now, that's all I'm sure of. I want her to love me a >s well, but she is entirely too happy with him. And he is too much of a nice >for me to even be able to compete against him. I'm rambling now, since there i >s no coherency to my thoughts. Hopefully, somehow, if I can become my own pers >on and grow up, then, I have the chance, however slight it may be, to be with h >er. If not, I don't want to clutter up her life in any way with my dependency >or my posessiveness. I have been thinking of transfering colleges, though I wo >uld miss this place and my friends. I love her. And I cannot go on writing th >is anymore. But I do love her. Shadow slumps. "And that's the worst part, of course. You love her, and she's happy, and so you couldn't bring yourself to do anything to mess up that happiness even if you wanted to. In fact, you're so worried that you might in- advertently offend her that you're willing to transfer colleges to avoid hur- ting her. Believe me, that would be a mistake. "If she values your friendship half as much as you value hers (and she does, from the sound of things, even with your 'dependency'), leaving would be one of the worst things you could do to both of you. Don't. But don't trick yourself into thinking that you're waiting for her to tire of him and come back to you...not that I think you are, or that you have in any way indicated that this is what you think, but I know what an insinuatingly attractive trap that line of thought can be. "You won't clutter up her life. I will stand by this opinion until she tells you she'd rather you transfered away, which she will not. You are her friend. People cannot live with boyfriends/girlfriends alone (well, some people can, but other people are probably happier). I don't know what to tell you any more. "Please believe this: the best remedy for the situation is time. Let it work: when it has passed, you will both have a strong friendship despite all this. It may look impossible now (and probably does), but trust me, from someone who's been there, and still is, really... "And please, feel free to write me for a somewhat more coherent dis- course. I'm all over the place tonight. "Most importantly, go ahead and cry. You kind of miss it when you can't do that any more..." Shadow -- From the only slightly twisted mind of... "In case we decide to ez000691@pollux.ucdavis.edu surrender to them, Number One." Path: mit-eddie!rutgers!ucsd!ucsdhub!hp-sdd!hplabs!hpfcso!daq From: daq@hpfcso.HP.COM (Doug Quarnstrom) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Notes to the Cynic Message-ID: <9060005@hpfcso.HP.COM> Date: 17 Dec 89 04:37:51 GMT References: Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA Lines: 113 The Cynic reenters the bar and crosses to check the bulletin wall. He reads the only message there. Always a sucker for a fine line pen, he scans the bar for the author. A woman catches his eye and becons him to her table. He accepts her offer for a drink and begins his conversation: "Diana I presume. I am the Cynic. It is a label, of course; a label I adopted because my acquaintances seem to think that it fits. Like most labels, it has some surface truth, but even my closest associates do not know how deep the truth does or does not run. I am not telling." He finishes the first drink rapidly and orders the second round. "A toast to confusion," he says gravely. "As for my message on the wall, I apologize for all of the melodramatics. All that stuff about humanity and controversy. It is just that the environment seemed to beg for melodrama and I never want to dissapoint the public, rapacious carnivores that they are." "Thank you for the drink and your response. You mentioned that people in this bar try to understand. Well, it is one of my contradictions that even though I seek understanding, I sometimes react negatively to it. Understanding, too easily granted, sometimes smacks of cheap familiarity. One likes to think, I suppose, that private pain is so complicated as to be incomprehensible to others. Do you understand?" He takes another drink and smirks playfully. "Let me explain what I mean by Devil's advocate. My personality makes me very contentious. I tend to enjoy gainsaying people for some perverse reason. And, given the fact that I have limited patience, I tend to become a bit acerbic at times. I guess that I can promise not to flame, but I cannot promise not to make others want to flame." "I originally thought that this bar was just a bit goofy, kind of like a CB radio attached to a typewriter. But, I guess I can see a value for a forum to expose hopes and dreams and wicked schemes. There may be value in an electronic environment to cleanse the pallet and the soul." "I would like to make some comments about my contempt for humanity, but I would like to quote your not before beginning." >Cynic, to have grown to have little but contempt for humanity, >suggests that you have seen some of the worst that people can >do. Terrible things happen, people do terrible things to other >people, it happens more often than most reasonable people can >bear. If you know this, then you have much in common with some >of the people at Callahan's. Some of us have seen this and as >a result of it have chosen to be different. Empathy is not >idealism; it's not an unfamiliarity with the way that much of the >world operates. Caring, compassion, is a choice that we make when >we've learned to feel the effects produced by the alternate choices. >It'S something we do as much for our own survival as for yours. "Well, I cannot complain too much about life. I have had it pretty easy compared to some, perhaps most. Yes, my parents were divorced, but it was friendly, and my father comes over to my mother's house for christmas and things like that. Yes, I had to deal with a father who was handicapped early in my childhood. Yes, I lived on welfare for awhile. But these things are small compared to sexual abuse and abandonment and all of the multitude of evils spread on children when parents tire of their little toys. Most of my cynicism comes from attempts from a very early age to create a philosophy that can encompass such things as concentration camps and saturation bombing. I have contempt for the collective juggernaut of humanity that hurtles headlong down the halls of history past holocaust after holocaust. I guess that I really am fairly empathic toward individuals, although I cannot claim to be actively compassionate." "You also mentioned that people who see the terrible things in the world choose to be different and become empathic. I am not sure if I agree. I tend to think, most of the time, that humanity is exactly where it deserves to be, sunk in dispair, violence, confusion, pain. I am so burned out by the dark side of the world that I can be extraordinarally callous and downright rude. Of course, some of this is just the disguise I choose to wear to get me through the days. Deep sleep gets me through the nights. I guess I am just not sure if I agree that being exposed to bad things in life necessarily breeds a more empathic person. Could it not just be neurosis seeking company?" "I really do enjoy philosophical rambling though, so I am sure that I can find some interesting people with whom to converse. But I must warn you, some of my attitudes really are quite outside the norm." Perhaps I will close with another nonsensical poem: Fading sun. Failing ways. Mounted in these granite days. Distractions come. Distractions go. By any name, still a rose. If you stop and watch it all, you'll see the soldiers rise and fall short of gold, attaining bronze. The leaders of the free world carry on. The Cynic Path: mit-eddie!rutgers!netnews.upenn.edu!cps3xx!usenet From: usenet@cps3xx.UUCP (Usenet file owner) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Personas, rambling (*long*!) Message-ID: <5828@cps3xx.UUCP> Date: 18 Dec 89 04:54:11 GMT Reply-To: frey@frith.UUCP (Zachary T. Frey) Organization: Michigan State University, College of Engineering Lines: 127 Whew! I just caught up on *lots* of articles (here and soc.singles), and I'm in the mood to talk tonight. There are people I want to reply to, and comments to follow up, but I think I'll just ramble in general right now... Personas: I don't see myself using a persona at Callahan's. Doesn't feel right. I've got no problem with them in principle -- I think they can be used to say things that can't be said otherwise. And I like the magikal air they give to the Place. I don't have a totem creature, and I do enough role-playing that I don't see the need to have a role here. Besides, I like being me. But just this once, I'd like to introduce you to the "other me's" that I've been. I hope that you'll find them interesting, and that maybe you'll be able the parts of me I invested in them. I probably won't invite any of them in, except possibly for the last ... Quentesin God-Slayer: a hunter and warrior, but also versed in the ways of magic and of the power that lay within. Serious in purpose, but not without a sense of humor -- actually enjoyed the presence of Lord Jethro, Prince of the Insane and Helper of Those in Need (whether they want help or not!). Not a loner, but worked with others, relying on friendship and repaying when possible. Faced the Kobold God in single combat to give his companions time to escape, and foiled the fates by emerging victorious. Jerimiah Took: who showed both his rescuers and himself that neither "experience" nor magic were necessary for him to be the hero that was needed. The only hafling to ever adopt the word "Banzai!" as a battle cry, he still did his most effective fighting from behind ... LeBruce Thorg: warrior and martial artist. Prided himself on drawing his power from his discipline, and chafed at the need to use magic in a world where magic rules. Smooth and diplomatic, he was still not much of a schemer, and left that to Lysistrata "the Bitch" ("smile when you say that"). Lysistrata, who he respected but never quite trusted, much to her approval ... Lassashaspear: "Spear" for short, although his weapon was the trident. He and his companion Klark were the only two of their race, the only Dragonmen to be found on the myriad planes in millenia. Spear seemed always to be questing -- gathering the artifacts of the Twelve Guardians against the coming of the Sleeper who Awakens; fighting alongside Sterm, Araglon, and the Araglonni against the forces of Lilith, Mithrandir, and Acthalion; and pursuing the holy quest to revive the race of the Dragonmen given him by the Dragon God Alerendanum. Sometimes, he just wished he could go back to his home village and spend his days as a simple fisherman and philosopher, though that was no longer possible ... the Darkwind: he finds the title enough, having no more use for his name. He's the best assasin in the world. There are three ways to find this out -- ask him (he'll tell you), hire him, or annoy someone who is *very* rich ... and Zach Frey, Registered Paranormal: after the strange White Event, college student Zachary Frey found himself gifted with psychic powers. He didn't rush out and get designer spandex at that point to try to make the world a better place -- that seemed too comic-bookish. But he doesn't make a secret of his abilities either, and that seems to get him drawn in to such things. Since he does want to make the world a better place, and has a taste for adventure, he's currently working with a group called Ozymandias, Inc. It probably provides a little *too* much adventure however, given the death threats and the drop in grades this term ... (playing a slightly changed version of myself provides my friends with some amusement, case in point) [slip into CHAMPIONSpeak for a moment ...] GM: "The members of Brother Rat start a brawl on the dance floor." ZF: "Okay. I take a look, sigh, stop dancing with the lady, fly into the air and zap the nearest Brother." GM: "The lady with the fishnet stockings, spike heels and black leather miniskirt that you were dancing with says 'Oh no you don't -- let the boys have their fun.' Hmm." "What's your EGO defense?" "What's your INT?" "Is being 'distracted' by this woman something that you might want to do?" ZF: "Uh, I suppose so." GM: "Okay, so that's *this* column on the Mind Control effects chart. BTW, do you have any disadvantages that might apply to this?" ZF: "Vulnerablility to magic, X2 STUN; Vulnerability to Presence Attacks made by women, X2 STUN; Psych. Lim., Flirtatious, 10 points ..." Sue: "I didn't know you put *that* in you character, too!" ZF: "... and Psych. Lim., Overconfidence, 10 points. What happens?" laughing GM: "You are helpless to do anything but neck with this woman until she releases you from her will." ZF: "Sounds fair to me. Is she good?" I might actually use Zach Frey, R.P. at Callahan's -- he's *me*, except he can do all those things that humans ought to be able to do anyway, like communicate telepathicly or fly or telekinese his drink to his mouth. So don't be too surprised if I suddenly teleport out of Callahan's some night because it's TDC (Too D*mn C*ld) to walk home. Zach P.S.: If anyone actually reads this far, and if anyone thinks that more gaming stories would liven up Callahan's, I'd be willing to come up with some more. You could also pester Greg Stockton (if he ever shows up again); he was Jethro, and Clark, and ran the campaign with LeBruce (and a second incarnation of J.D. Took). If people don't think that gaming stories are appropriate here, let me know. Unfortunately, none of the stories from my real life lend themselves well to storytelling. Neither are they epic. I'm afraid they all have that "you had to be there" quality. Papernet: Zachary Frey | frey@frith.egr.msu.edu | Usenet: the 514 Virginia St. | frey@frith.BITNET | Bellman's E. Lansing, MI 48823 | ...uunet!frith!frey | Paradise. Newsgroups: alt.callahans Path: mit-eddie!bloom-beacon!athena.mit.edu!erspert From: erspert@athena.mit.edu (Ellen R. Spertus) Subject: Re: Rescuers and Real Men (was Re: The victims in Montreal) Message-ID: <1989Dec18.192207.2520@athena.mit.edu> Summary: Phil's reply (forwarded by Ellen) Sender: news@athena.mit.edu (News system) Reply-To: microsoft!t-phils@uunet.uu.net Organization: Massachusetts Institute of Technology Date: Mon, 18 Dec 89 19:22:07 GMT Lines: 292 Phil mailed this to me because he was having trouble posting. I have posted it, as he requested, unaltered. Ellen Well, your posting finally made it here. The following is my response; I would consider it a favor if you would post it for me, since rn seems to be broken right now and hangs every time I try to post anything... it's been doing this for about a week, now, and I'm kind of tired of waiting for it to get fixed or fix itself. If you would rather not do so, that is your choice. In article <1989Dec14.203633.17168@athena.mit.edu> you write: | In article <9525@microsoft.UUCP> t-phils@microsoft.UUCP (the Eternal Stranger) writes: | >"Fourteen women were killed in that room... | >Chaos, it didn't even NEED a hero. All it needed was for two or three | >of those men - maybe even just one - to realise that in the confines of | >a room, one man with a rifle facing ten or more unarmed men would be able | >to get off AT MOST two or three shots before being overpowered. All it | >needed was for ONE MAN to care enough about those women to TRY IT, DAMN | >IT TO HELL!!! | | Alaric, I'm disappointed with you. Why are you excluding the women? | Just like you, I dream of rescuing and rarely of being rescued. In | some of my daydreams, however, the man can't stand me after I have | rescued him. I had thought this ending was overly pessimistic, but | you have convinced me it is accurate. My apologies... I had no conscious intention of excluding women. Jilara too has pointed this same thing out to me. My choice of words was as it was, because I was particularly frustrated at the men in the room for not trying. When I am angry and frustrated, my frustration sometimes blurs my reason, and I don't say exactly what I mean - or don't really make it clear what I mean. (More on this later...) | >"By all the gods, if I'd been in that room, I'd have tried it!" | >[At least - I hope to hell I would have. - Phil] | | Same here. I know how to use a gun, and I would like to be able to | carry one. ("God created man. Samuel Colt made them equal.") I | believe all people should be able to defend themselves and others, so | I learned to shoot, to the extreme shock and disapproval of my family. | Without a gun, all I have is my pocket knife and my wits (I am a | hundred pound weakling); however some women are physically strong. My | best friend's sister is at West Point, and odds are she could "whip | your ass" (pardon me for using the colloquial). I'd be more confident | having her in a room with me than the average male. My brother's | girlfriend is much stronger than my brother. She used to jog early | mornings in the south side of Chicago ("the baddest part of town"). | Someone tried to mug her. She beat him up. Do you consider her | unfeminine? Since I don't know her, I'm in no position to judge her femiminity. Certainly I don't think for one second that standing up for herself makes her unfeminine; I wish that more women did (or did so more effectively). Unfortunately, our society tends to impose cultural conditioning that says women shouldn't do so. | Would you call her a "real man"? The term is hardly applicable, is it? What I _would_ do is admire her for not allowing society to impose its idea of what she should be upon her. | She does make herself | helpless-looking in general, however. Does that make you happy? I'm not in any position to say what she should or should not make herself look like. But on that subject, what is "helpless-looking"? I used to know an elderly man from Okinawa, who was very quiet, very self-effacing; he probably just about came up to my chin, and I doubt if he weighed more than 130 or so. I suppose you could say that he was helpless-looking; certainly he disliked physical violence, and tried to avoid it whenever possible. It was a great sorrow to him when he was attacked several years ago by a mugger, and was forced to injure his attacker. His name is Teruo Chinen, and he is the world president of the International Okinawan Goju Ryu Karate-Do Federation. I studied under him, and I do not have the slightest doubt that - should he so choose - he could reduce me to a bleeding wreck in, say about 30 to 45 seconds. I respect him greatly. Whether your brother's girlfriend chooses to _look_ helpless is immaterial to me. The fact that she is NOT helpless - now, _that_ makes me happy. | >YOU DON'T TURN YOUR BACK AND WALK AWAY!!! Not if you still | >want to keep on calling yourself a man afterwards!!!" | >"I was told that the gunman separated the men from the women, and forced | >the men to leave. I don't agree with that version of events. There | >weren't any men in that room - because anyone who would turn his back | >on fourteen women and leave them to die, at the hands of ONE MAN - make | >that one animal - with a rifle, isn't a man. I don't know what he is, | >but he isn't a man." | | You obviously have a high opinion of being a "man". I'll never be | that. It is attitudes like yours, Alaric, that made me feel bad | about being female for the first 21 years of my life. Do I have | to act masculine to be respected for any self-sufficiency and | heroism I possess? I suppose I have high expectations of anyone - male or female. I expect people to give more for each other, care more for each other, than they do - irregardless of their sex. I find it hard to respect a man who turns his back and leaves anyone to die when there is something he could have done to prevent it. I find it equally hard to respect a woman who does the same thing. But it saddens, frustrates and depresses me that in this day and age, the overwhelming message that society teaches us is, "don't get involved." We are taught the message in a hundred subtle ways. We are taught to care mainly for ourselves - even to care only for ourselves; certainly to put ourselves first. I cannot do that, and I cannot admire anyone who does. I put other people first, in many ways, and people tell me that I am wrong to do so - they act as though it means that I am sick, mentally unstable, as though it is irrational behavior to care so greatly for other people. But bluntly, if the price of acceptance by other people is to compromise my principles and become as self-centered and uncaring as they are, then thank you very much but I'll stay outcast. I don't know what you have to do to be respected by other people, but if you want to earn my respect then you're already doing it right - by being yourself, and by standing up for yourself and others. You don't have to act masculine. You don't have to _ACT_ anything at all. All you have to do is _be who and what you are._ | >In this day and age, you may think that's an outdated attitude. | Wanting to protect people you love is not outdated. Just don't | pretend that men have a monopoly on it, or that "being a man" is | the highest possible compliment. I don't pretend that anyone has a monopoly on caring for people. If anything, I think men _on average_ lack more in that area than women do _on average_, because society conditions men to stifle their emotions and feelings. Neither do I think that "being a man" is the highest possible compliment. (To be honest, sometimes I think that being human is more of an admission than a boast.) What I do think is that a man who does not protect others when he could do so is less a man than he could be - and a woman who does not protect others when she could do so is less a woman than she could be. | >I can | >think of many women who would find it insulting, because in their minds | >the desire to protect them is somehow demeaning - an attitude that I | >find utterly incomprehensible. What can possibly be demeaning about | >being valued? | | The desire to protect others is not demeaning. The implication that | you can protect them better than they can, or that they shouldn't want | to protect people they love, would be demeaning. I would suggest that the desire to protect others does not in any way imply that they are incapable of protecting themselves... certainly I intended no such implication, and to be honest I'm a little at a loss to understand where you draw this implication from. I have never in my life met anyone so competent that they could never, ever possibly benefit from a little help... we _all_ need a little help sometimes. Even Sensei Chinen could find himself in a position where he needed a little help (though if _he_ needed a little help, I suspect that about all I'd be able to do would be to get in the way... and in that case, I should hope I would have the sense to get out of the way and let him get on with it). Even if you don't literally _NEED_ help, it's nice to know people are willing to offer it anyway. If I am doing something and managing quite well by myself, and someone else offers to lend a hand, then I am grateful for the offer of help (though I reserve the right to decline the offer if I think it won't be helpful). And on the occasions when I run into something I can't handle, I'm always glad if there's someone else around to help me out of a tight spot... unfortunately, that rarely happens. (Fortunately, I don't often get into such tight spots.) Alaric is a lot that I am not. My Alaric persona is in many ways what I would like to be... he's physically a lot stronger than I am (and I do mean a _lot_ stronger), and he has more self-confidence. I don't pretend that I'm any kind of Chuck Norris type. I've known people who are, but I'm not. Nevertheless, I try; I do what I can. Most of the time, it's enough. Sometimes, it isn't. I don't like to fail, at anything, but sometimes I do. Everyone does, from time to time. Even if I was all that my Alaric persona is, I would still fail from time to time, because no-one is infallible. And on the occasions when I did fail, I would hope that there would be someone there to give me a little help - a man or a woman, it really doesn't matter which. My point is exactly that people SHOULD help people thay love - and people they just like - and people they maybe don't even know, but who just need a little help. I never for one moment suggested that anyone should _not_ want to protect someone that they love - I think one of the biggest problems of our society is that all too often, people _don't_ do all that they can to protect their loved ones, or anyone else. To want to protect someone doesn't have to mean that you don't think they're capable of protecting themselves; it just means that you care about them enough that you're willing to help anyway. | Alaric, you think putting women on a pedestal is awfully nice. I didn't say that. What I said was that people I know have told me I put women on pedestals, and that I disagree with that assessment. The way I look at it, I value all people - not just women - the way that I feel _everyone else_ should value them too. To put it in simpler terms, other people tell me I value people - particularly women - too much; I respond that _they_ don't value people enough. I admit to a slight bias, I admit to valuing women slightly more than men - to the extent that given two perfect strangers in mortal danger, one man and one woman, and knowing that I can save - or may be able to save - only one, then ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL I will try to save the woman first. But if I'm able to safely get her out of danger, then I'll go right back for the man... You may argue with this bias, if you wish. But if nothing else, then in a purely biological sense women are more important to the species than men, because a man can impregnate many women during a nine-month period, but a woman can carry only one (or occasionally, two or three, and rarely even more) child during that time. I know that sounds awfully cold and impersonal, and I'm not trying to say that's my reason; I'm just pointing it out to say that there are reasons for leaning one way or the other. Like it or not, political rhetoric and social roles aside, men and women - males and females of _any_ species - are _not_ created equal. So for whatever reason, I am not absolutely objective; I always have valued women, collectively and individually, a little more than men. If you don't like that, then go ahead and flame me - but let's keep it to email, please, and keep it out of Callahan's. | I was | pretty old before I realized that changing a lightbulb was trivial. | My mom always said, "The light has burnt out; get your father." My | mom can't operate a computer (much less program one), and she can't | use a VCR. She's not retarded. Her IQ is certainly above average. | She has a college degree. | | I am (with great effort) assuming that the views expressed are | Alaric's and not Phil's. I am glad, though, that I didn't go to Phil | when I was a damsel in distress. Instead, I went to people who also | let me help them when they need help. As I said - we all need a little help sometimes. I've become accustomed to being the one giving, rather than the one receiving, help - but not because I won't let people help me; it's because I've gotten used to the fact that people seem perfectly willing most of the time to accept my help when they need a helping hand, but when I in turn need a little help, they all suddenly discover that there's some really important stuff they need to do someplace else. Like maybe buying a new pack of cigarettes, or watching Monday night football. They need help, they're willing to accept it. I need help, I get to sink or swim on my own. So I've come not to expect help from anyone. I'm sure it influences the way I react to things and the way I express things - I'd be amazed if it didn't. But just because I've had to learn to get by without help from anyone doesn't mean I won't accept it on the very, very rare times when it's been offered (actually, I'm not even sure I'm justified in using a plural there). | To always be the rescuee would | be the worst thing possible for my self-esteem. To both help and be | helped by others, in contrast, would be the best thing possible. I agree - you're completely right. But let me point out, it isn't the greatest ego-boost in the world to never be the rescuee, either. It leaves you feeling very much used when everyone disappears the moment you could use a little help. Like the Kipling (I think?) poem about the Indian scout - during the wars it was Billy we need you, Billy what would we do without you, then after the war it was Step off the sidewalk, Billy, there's white folks want to pass. Sound bitter? You're damned right I'm bitter about it. And that bitterness shows sometimes - like when other people _won't_ help someone who needs it, and I _can't_ help, because I can't get there or don't know that someone needs help there. It shows when something like this Montreal incident happens, because I can't be there to do what someone should have done, and no-one else there did it either, so it didn't get done and fourteen - fifteen - people died because of it. --- Phil Stracchino t-phils@microsoft.UUCP Eternal Stranger and Digital Renaissance Man for Hire ------------------------------------------------------------- `The biggest drawback to being a Renaissance man in the 20th century is that you automatically become an anachronism. The 20th century has no real place or use for a Renaissance man, particularly a digital one.' Path: mit-eddie!bloom-beacon!snorkelwacker!think!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!HPLABS.HP.COM!egly%hplred From: egly%hplred@HPLABS.HP.COM (Diana Egly) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: More to the cynic Message-ID: Date: 18 Dec 89 19:35:20 GMT Sender: daemon@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU Lines: 115 > "Thank you for the drink and your response. You mentioned that > people in this bar try to understand. Well, it is one of my > contradictions that even though I seek understanding, I > sometimes react negatively to it. Understanding, too easily > granted, sometimes smacks of cheap familiarity. One likes to > think, I suppose, that private pain is so complicated as to > be incomprehensible to others. Do you understand?" One's private pain is always complex. Never quite like another's pain, or experience. But I don't see as that makes it incomprehensible. "I know just what you're feeling" IS cheap familiarity, and probably untrue as well. I think of understanding as being able to touch the strongest emotions and their overtones -- and to resonate with them. But I've never found the need for words on the occasions where I have touched someone's private pain and followed the web that it took in their private thoughts -- to touch that deeply is to be touched in return -- which mitigates the need for words. > "Let me explain what I mean by Devil's advocate. My personality > makes me very contentious. I tend to enjoy gainsaying people > for some perverse reason. And, given the fact that I have > limited patience, I tend to become a bit acerbic at times. > I guess that I can promise not to flame, but I cannot promise > not to make others want to flame." Well, then, you give us practice in self-control. May diety find other means for teaching you patience -- eventually. > "I originally thought that this bar was just a bit goofy, kind > of like a CB radio attached to a typewriter. What an image! I can visualize it! This is one I'll carry around with me for a while until I find a situation to which it can be appropriately attached. > Most of my cynicism comes from attempts from a very early age to > create a philosophy that can encompass such things as concentration > camps and saturation bombing. I have contempt for the collective > juggernaut of humanity that hurtles headlong down the halls of > history past holocaust after holocaust. Reminds me of my spiritkin's sweatshirt -- "I love people, it's humanity that I can't stand" > "You also mentioned that people who see the terrible things in > the world choose to be different and become empathic. I am > not sure if I agree. Are you saying that no one makes this choice? Shall I give you counterexamples? I know that most people do not chose kindness. BUT some of them, some of them, DO. What I said was... >> Some of us have seen this and as >>a result of it have chosen to be different. Empathy is not >>idealism; it's not an unfamiliarity with the way that much of the >>world operates. Caring, compassion, is a choice that we make when >>we've learned to feel the effects produced by the alternate choices. I acknowledge that not all can or do feel the effects that are produced by alternate choices. There may even be some who *like* to feel the soul-withering of others... Never run into one such myself, but I've heard of such. > I tend to think, most of the time, that > humanity is exactly where it deserves to be, sunk in dispair, > violence, confusion, pain. I am so burned out by the dark > side of the world that I can be extraordinarally callous and > downright rude. Of course, some of this is just the disguise > I choose to wear to get me through the days. Deep sleep gets > me through the nights. Reminds me of an image I once read of... An image of an ocean of darkness. An image of drowning in that ocean of darkness. And in the image there came to be a light, a light that the darkness could not swallow up. Would that you could find a light in your ocean of darkness... > I guess I am just not sure if I agree > that being exposed to bad things in life necessarily breeds > a more empathic person. I never said that it necessarily did. I did say that a natural empath will often choose compassion when exposed to the bad things. But not all are natural empaths. And I did say that some who have been exposed to the bad things choose to become empathic. But if the bad things NECESSARILY bred a more empathic person, then I wouldn't talk about it as a choice. A choice implies that there are more options... I think of the close of V.Frankl's book _Man's Search for Meaning_. After talking of his experiences in the Nazi concentration camps, and his observations of his fellow prisoners, he concluded by saying that Auschwitz teaches us what mankind can be and Hiroshima shows us why it matters. We can choose to be destroyers... or not... And some of us at alt.callahans have chosen. > Could it not just be neurosis seeking > company?" Some forms of understanding, and compassion, are something akin to neurosis seeking company. Some aren't. You have to look carefully to find the difference, but I assure you that there is one. > "I really do enjoy philosophical rambling though, so I am sure > that I can find some interesting people with whom to converse. > But I must warn you, some of my attitudes really are quite > outside the norm." So are some of mine... Diana egly@hplabs Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!usc!cs.utexas.edu!rice!uw-beaver!Teknowledge.COM!polya!lucid.com!lucidboston!kdo From: kdo@lucid.com (Ken Olum) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: lovers and friends Message-ID: <143@boston-harbor.lucid.com> Date: 18 Dec 89 19:18:00 GMT References: <136@boston-harbor.lucid.com> <20940006@hplred.HP.COM> Reply-To: kdo@lucid.com Organization: Lucid East, Sharon MA Lines: 47 In article <20940006@hplred.HP.COM> egly@hplred.HP.COM (Diana Egly) writes: >I almost didn't recognize you as a hummingbird, but the form does suit you >well... It wasn't a real persona in the sense that I don't want to use it all the time, and people shouldn't think of me that way. It just seemed like the right thing for a toast "to intensity." That's a real part of me, but there are other parts too and and I certainly hope I'm not as frenetic and ephemeral as hummingbirds are. If I think of something that fits more parts of me maybe I'll have a real persona, but for the moment I'll just be me. >I wonder if part of the reason that people long for soulmates rather >than a circle of friends is that they've been trained to think of >and imagine what having a soulmate must be like... We don't get much >training, or insight into, close knit circles of friends... > >Sometimes I think that people who work to have the kinds of relationships >that you have, need to speak up about how it is. To share the vision >and the reality. Because otherwise a lot of people will never understand... > >Consider this an open invitation to talk... Thanks, Diana. I don't really have a good way to say how it is or what I look for and hope to get out of a group of friends. I hope that my other postings will give people a feel for my lifestyle as the group goes on. Here's a piece of it, though: The thing that makes me want to respond to people who are in desperate need of a soulmate is not the wanting a soulmate, but the desperate need. There's wanting a situation because you think how good it would be to have and what it would add to your life, and then there's wanting something because it meets a deep need and you aren't complete without it. Things go better when you are searching in the first kind of way, and that's how I feel about having a lover. I think this is the point of the advice that you can only find a girlfriend when you aren't looking for one. It's not the looking, but the desperation, that turns people off and makes it hard to form normal relationships. The first priority is to find a situation that meets your needs so that you aren't lonely and that you have friendship and support and can function well. That's what I get from my friends. It's a base, and a place to come home to, that enables me to reach out and take risks and know that I can't lose everything because I have a steady base of support. Ken Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!apple!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!pt.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!rf1n+ From: rf1n+@andrew.cmu.edu (Randolph James Finder) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Good Day Message-ID: Date: 17 Dec 89 16:12:43 GMT Organization: Class of '90, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 5 Thought I'd wander in and sit a spell. Found out about Callahan's from IRC. Randolph Finder rf1n+@andrew.cmu.edu "And yet I would give it all up to be human" - Lt. Cmdr Data Path: mit-eddie!wuarchive!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!pt.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!haste+ From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Do Not Open Until Tall Tale Night Message-ID: Date: 16 Dec 89 22:49:38 GMT Organization: Graduate School of Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 21 Shadow: >...tickets to Tibet...chartered us a couple of llamas... Shadow, Tibet has (or had) lamas, and has (or will have) lllamas, but for llamas you have to had a good way further east. Now, have you heard the one about the man who went to modern Tibet to seek enlightenment? ----- Dani Zweig haste+@andrew.cmu.edu The inability of snakes to count is actually a refusal, on their part, to appreciate the Cardinal Number system. -- "Actual Facts" ----- Dani Zweig haste+@andrew.cmu.edu The inability of snakes to count is actually a refusal, on their part, to appreciate the Cardinal Number system. -- "Actual Facts"