Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!microsoft!peterdur From: peterdur@microsoft.UUCP (Peter Durham) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Masks (Re:Interconnectedness) Message-ID: <5@microsoft.UUCP> Date: 18 Dec 89 19:00:04 GMT Reply-To: peterdur@microsoft.UUCP (Janelle Durham c/o Peter Durham) Distribution: usa Organization: Microsoft Corp., Redmond WA Lines: 164 I apologize if the topic has dropped out of discussion (I'm some 70+ postings behind...), but the discussion of masks, proper social behavior and such brought up lots of thoughts in my head, and those thoughts can perhaps serve as an introduction to me, someone who's been quietly observing so far (though probably not from a dark corner... I don't hide too much :) ) Slapping a dollar bill on the counter, I order a seltzer, then hop up to the line... Over the past few years, I've done a lot of thinking about masks, and how our past experiences affect the masks we wear, or that we must consciously choose to put away. My experience has taught me differently than some of yours, so I will begin there. I guess I learned about masks early on... not dreadfully stifling masks, but ones I could live happily with, and that saved me a lot of pain that many of my friends these days have experienced. I was and am "blessed" with the ability to get along happily with most anyone... in junior high (oh, that dreadful time for many intelligent people), I was one of the "in" crowd, liked by most everyone (although I was willing to wear some of the masks (the perfectly done hair and makeup, the right clothes...), I refused to "pick on" those who weren't part of the "right" group.) And, I had a quite happy adolescence. At the time, my masks and my conformity were just how I was, they were me to some extent, and I was quite comfortable with the me that used masks to fit in, only allowing my intelligence and other 'flaws' to show through when it seemed safe. But my attitudes toward masks, and eventually toward the company I keep began to change when I was diagnosed with bone cancer at fifteen (c'mon, it's not that bad... I'm fine now much better overall than I would have been otherwise!) Suddenly having hair at all was more important than spending hours with a curling iron, suddenly I could no longer be "normal" and blend right into any crowd, no matter what I did or how I acted. I now only had one leg, and that makes one a bit obvious :) So, after having been shocked out of complacency, I've spent the past eight or nine years defining myself, both the real me, and the various masks that I wear for others, and with this has come the evolution in the kinds of people I surround myself with. The kinds that I call 'friend'. Having learned that life's too important to waste time pretending, to lose chances at true friendship by always interacting on a superficial level only with the "right" people, I began to change, to evolve into more me and less social construct. Not that I've completely lost the useful ability to put on masks temporarily to avoid distressing people too much, but I have found many ways to not lose myself to those masks. In general social situations (more about amongst friends later), I have decided what masks I will wear and what rules I will follow, learning to strike a balance. It is possible to have other people be comfortable with the real you by breaking some of the rules, but following those you can live with... and yes, occasionally I have had to decide that it is more important to be me than to make someone happy... if I scare someone off, I didn't really want to deal with them in the first place. For example, these days I'm looking for a job (all you students, enjoy the non-real world while you can!!). So when I go to interviews, I dress the right way, I talk the right way, I act as appropriate to the situation. But I don't wear makeup, because I don't like the whole societal attitude that says a woman doesn't look "professional" if she doesn't glop animal- tested environmentally-harmful, superficial masks on. I interact honestly with people, following rules when necessary, but not sacrificing me. Not hiding myself behind masks to make other people comfortable... For example, not many people are automatically comfortable dealing with a woman with one leg. Many people would probably be much happier if I wore an artificial leg all the time so they could forget about the fact that I am different. Running around on crutches with an empty pants leg forces people to come to terms with something that is a big part of me (or is that something that isn't a big part of me... :-) ). Now, someday, I may start wearing an artificial leg again (I stopped in college when my non-conformist attitudes really came out), but it will not be to make others more comfortable. I am comfortable with me the way I am, and since I don't find artificial legs practical (it slows me down), I am not going to give in to societal pressures to fit in. It's a 'mask' that's a bit more tangible than some of the ones others wear, but perhaps that makes it an easier mask to reject. I feel that the only path to intimacy is to give up on masks and to be who we truly are (yes, following rules when ab- solutely necessary, but as little as possible amongst friends). All this is perhaps made easier by the friends I have found over the past years, in my migration from being part of the in-crowd to being friends with a lot of the most wonderful "social outcasts" imaginable. Throughout four years of college, I found a few wonderful groups of people (at science fiction conventions, role-players, and people in the SCA - Society for Creative Anachronism). I found groups of people who have often had problems following societal rules but have refused to cave in... women who don't hide their intelligence for fear of scaring off men, men who aren't afraid to admit they feel things, people who are willing to open themselves up to others, people who are tired of a society that tells them to put on masks, and hide themselves from others, people who have learned how to accept others (often as a result of being rejected too many times), people who are willing to be intimate/non-superficial, people who are honest, people who are willing to open up when they find themselves in a group of intelligent, honest, accepting people who will listen to them and allow them to be themselves. (Quick disclaimer: not all fen/gamers/SCAdians are perfect, and lots of people who don't happen to be involved in these activities do meet these descriptions, I've just found them to be more common in these groups ...oh, and several of y'all out there on the net, of course.. than out in general mundanity) Sadly, it seems the wisdom and maturity required to allow someone to step outside of social rules and dare to be intimate, dare to be REAL must come as a result of difficult times. Rejection teaches acceptance, and so on. But there are people who have used the bad times to grow into amazing people, and I am thankful to know so many of them. More general thoughts follow: In article <11323@csli.Stanford.EDU> cphoenix@csli.stanford.edu (Chris Phoenix) writes: OOPS...this might all actually be a response to Chris, if so I apologize to the real poster. In deleting sections of this large posting, I may have gotten mixed up. (apologetic look...) > Keep your interactions on a superficial level. People don't like >having to think about social interactions. Don't expect anything important >to happen, and definitely don't try to make something important happen. >This point is closely tied to the next one. > Above all, don't do anything extraordinary. Don't do anything that a >"socially correct" person wouldn't do. It's very unnerving, because if you >do something unexpected they might be put in a situation that their social >mask can't handle. My general advice on social rules and masks is this: rules are sometimes necessary, but decide first what aspects of yourself you are not willing to sacrifice, and never try to hide those behind a mask... 'tis better to not always do the 'right' thing for the sake of other people's comfort (and for the sake of protecting yourself from rejection. Don't deny the real you, ever. Don't be too afraid of being extraordinary! >A couple of warnings on the above rules: >But *don't* use them on your friends, and be *very* careful not to get so >used to them that you can't drop them entirely. >You will find a few people who you don't need a mask for, and it's very >important to be able to take it off when you can. YES!!! >>TO FRIENDSHIP, MAY ALL OURS BE TRUE. After having gone on too long, I raise my glass in a toast: TO BEING TRUE TO OURSELVES AS A STEP TOWARD INTIMACY WITH TRUE FRIENDS! (CRASH...) Janelle (no personas here) ... remind me to tell you about my soulmate someday (the husband whose name is on this account... the wonderful man who is ready to go home now...if he didn't want me to read news, he shouldn't let me at his terminal!)... ... about soulmates: if you haven't read Richard Bach's _Bridge Across Forever_ do it now! Great lessons can be found there about finding a true soulmate "one who lets you be you."... Path: mit-eddie!mintaka!think!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!wuarchive!rex!uflorida!haven!umd5!spier From: spier@umd5.umd.edu (Lori Spier) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Time in a Bottle Message-ID: <5797@umd5.umd.edu> Date: 18 Dec 89 19:55:36 GMT Reply-To: spier@umd5.umd.edu (Lori Spier) Organization: University of Maryland, College Park Lines: 41 A figure rises from out of a shadowy corner. 'Hello again all. It's neem awhile since I was last able to visit and I wish I could say all that I wanted to. But time grows short and the hour is late.... Anyway, since I started visiting Callahan's, I've been doing some pretty heavy thinking about life in general and mine in particular. And I've made some discoveries that have helped me to settle more into myself than ever before. A friend of mine once described me as the last original Earth Mother and I've come to realize just how aptly that title fits. I want to hold all of you who are hurting and try to sooth your troubles away. But tht's not possible. Growing and maturing involves pain - it is a birthing process of sorts. Believe me though, the pain will diminish in time. And time is the theme of my toast: The 80's drwa to a close. A time to reflect back on what was and on what may never be. During the 80s, I gained a husband and a son who still thinks that mom is way cool. I (finally!) graduted from college and obtained a "real" job. I've lost a father and some dear friends who perished before their time. But the experiencesgained have made it all worthwhile. The 80s gave the world so many things, both good and bad: - Challenger and the renewal of our space program - Solidarity, Czechoslavakia, Bulgaria and the Berlin Wall - Reganomics and 10.2% unemployment - the Wall and recognition of Vietnam Vetrens - AIDS and crack - Hands Across America and the homeless - the farm crisis - the Greenhouse Effect and a renewed interest in ecology - Khomeni, Quadaffy, Marcos - the Soviet ceasation of whale "harvesting" - Tienamen Square - goodbye to Lucy, Cary, John, and Harry and to so many others So, to end it all: To the end of the 80s and the beginning of the 90s. May the future improve upon the past. *************************************************************** Dr. Mom is available for consulation at the following offices: Spier@umdc.umd.edu Spier@umd5.umd.edu Lori@merlin-tr.umd.edu "Working mothers are guniea pigs in a scientific experiment to prove that sleep is not necessary to huamn life." Path: mit-eddie!wuarchive!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!samsung!cs.utexas.edu!mailrus!iuvax!rutgers!njin!princeton!phoenix!jwbirdsa From: jwbirdsa@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (James Webster Birdsall) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Logic? Keywords: logic suicide Message-ID: <12303@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> Date: 18 Dec 89 22:33:46 GMT Organization: Princeton University, NJ Lines: 42 In article <6301@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> ez000691@pollux writes: > "Whatever you do, discard suicide as an option, immediately. You can >live without her. You won't have to, but if everything came crashing down >around your ears, you could go on. You *could*. Use logic, if you wish, as >there are a couple of beautiful arguments for living, but it's better to just >feel it in your gut. The scarecrow in green happens to be taking a sip when this bit of conversation drifts by, which is unfortunate because he then swallows wrong and spends the next several minutes coughing his lungs out. When he finally recovers his composure, he stands up and starts talking. "Shadow, I can't let that one pass without remark. Just to be clear, I agree with your stand against suicide. On January 4th, I complete my second year of still being alive and, on the whole, it hasn't been that bad. My personal attitude, when I'm thinking straight, is that there is far too much to see and do even in a whole lifetime, and one of my ambitions is to live as long as I can. "So that's not what I'm taking issue with. But I question your invocation of logic. Maybe your logic is different from mine, or maybe you have found something I've overlooked, but I have always found logic to be not only ineffectual but downright depressing. "It is not written anywhere in the laws of physics, which underlie all phenomena, that I will ever be happy. There is, in fact, no guarantee that it will even continue to be as good as it is. One can make assorted probabilistic arguments, but they are merely statements of probability, and the probabilities are not arrived at by any deterministic process but are merely guesses. "In the end, I always must determine that logic cannot give me anything to look forward to. I must simply hope, and hope is emotion, not logic. "Actually, I suppose I should make a toast now. Seems appropriate. To Hope!" *smash* -- James W. Birdsall jwbirdsa@phoenix.Princeton.EDU jwbirdsa@pucc.BITNET ...allegra!princeton!phoenix!jwbirdsa Compu$erve: 71261,1731 "For it is the doom of men that they forget." -- Merlin Path: mit-eddie!mintaka!think!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!ucdavis!pollux!ez000691 From: ez000691@pollux Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: The Cynic Summary: I'm no optimist, but... Keywords: realism cynicism pessimism tryingveryhardnottobelongwinded Message-ID: <6312@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> Date: 19 Dec 89 02:35:13 GMT References: <9060002@hpfcso.HP.COM> <9060003@hpfcso.HP.COM> Sender: uucp@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu Reply-To: ez000691@pollux (Shadow) Followup-To: alt.callahans Organization: University of California, Davis Lines: 46 In article <9060003@hpfcso.HP.COM> daq@hpfcso.HP.COM (Doug Quarnstrom) writes: >I am known as the Cynic. I heard about this place; a place where >one can come to discuss ideas with people who will not flame >merely because the ideas are different. I wonder if it is true. > >Is there a place in this bar for a devil's advocate? > >Is it possible to empathise and disagree simultaneously? > >Can one represent opposing viewpoints without flaming? > >Is there enough common humanity between the empathic people >of this bar and a man who has grown to have little but >contempt for humanity to make meaningful communication >possible? > >The Cynic Absolutely. Of course. Yes. If it is possible anywhere, it is possible here. If by devil's advocate you mean arguing a point of view you don't truly believe, then it ought to be encouraged...it helps point out the holes in the arguments you do support, and eventually firms up faith rather than destroying it. Empathizing requires feeling another's pain. One can empathize and nevertheless feel that the pain is needless, and wish for a different result. In fact, one is encouraged to do so -- the more pain we can eliminate, the more joy we'll have left. Facts speak louder than words, sometimes: we are one of the only alt/talk/soc groups without a single flame thus far (besides, we always have Fast Eddie). If you want to talk about contempt for humanity, the ears are open. If you want to talk about something else but fear it will be tinged by con- tempt for humanity, fear not. The ears are open. Humanity can be a bitch sometimes, but I think there's hope for us yet...and the fact that you found the Place when you needed to might just smack of that very hope. There's a drink waiting on the bar for you, and an empty chair at this table... Shadow -- From the only slightly twisted mind of... "In case we decide to ez000691@pollux.ucdavis.edu surrender to them, Number One." Path: mit-eddie!wuarchive!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!jefyoung From: jefyoung@pawl.rpi.edu (Jeffrey Young) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: lovers and friends Message-ID: <4Y}#A$@rpi.edu> Date: 19 Dec 89 02:56:49 GMT References: <136@boston-harbor.lucid.com> <20940006@hplred.HP.COM> <143@boston-harbor.lucid.com> Organization: Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy NY Lines: 65 In article <143@boston-harbor.lucid.com> kdo@lucid.com writes: > > >The thing that makes me want to respond to people who are in desperate >need of a soulmate is not the wanting a soulmate, but the desperate >need. There's wanting a situation because you think how good it would >be to have and what it would add to your life, and then there's >wanting something because it meets a deep need and you aren't complete >without it. Things go better when you are searching in the first kind >of way, and that's how I feel about having a lover. I think this is >the point of the advice that you can only find a girlfriend when you >aren't looking for one. It's not the looking, but the desperation, >that turns people off and makes it hard to form normal relationships. > >The first priority is to find a situation that meets your needs so >that you aren't lonely and that you have friendship and support and >can function well. That's what I get from my friends. It's a base, >and a place to come home to, that enables me to reach out and take >risks and know that I can't lose everything because I have a steady >base of support. > > Ken The Unicorn-turned-youth looks up after hearing it, sadness in his eyes. "But what to do when that base is yanked out from under you? Where do you turn when you find that your friends have been dragged away while you were gone? That the base you thought was secure has gone away, and left you?" The kid sighs audibly, and wishes he didn't have to be so depressing, but it is the truth as he sees it. "That was the risk I took, staying the outcast, never really trying to take the effort required to fit into the various groups of people. I found my people because they were outcasts like me.. but they are all gone now...save one..and she's been accepted by another group of friends. I don't see her much anymore. I think a friend of mine said it best when he said, 'You help me just by being there, Tal. I may never ask you for help, but you are there if I need you, and that is my strength.'" "I guess what I am trying to say is that the world is ever-changing, and while it is one of the best things in the world to slack off a bit of your own strength into others, be sure you can survive if they are taken away from you.. I'll go on, aye, but it'll be hard to start all over again..." "Again, I apologize. I know a lot of you are losing people now, be it to distance, death, or something else, and it is wrong for me to bring that pain out in the open. But you have to go on.. because you've done it before you met your friends, and you can do it again... it's just a matter of picking yourself up and moving right along." The youth rubs his eyes with his sleeve a moment, and stares back into the fire... "..how can I help my friends if they are no longer there?", he is heard to whisper. -Taldin -- "You are blue, Unicorn.. the Blue of clear, cloudless days where everything seems like it's going right and nothing could go wrong.. and the Blue of despair and lonliness." jefyoung@pawl.rpi.edu Path: mit-eddie!mintaka!snorkelwacker!usc!hacgate!lori From: lori@hacgate.scg.hac.com (Lori Barfield) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: The Answer, Of Course, Is 42 Message-ID: <6507@hacgate.scg.hac.com> Date: 19 Dec 89 01:09:26 GMT References: <6424@hacgate.UUCP> <9541@microsoft.UUCP> Reply-To: lori@hacgate.UUCP (Lori Barfield) Organization: Hughes Aircraft Co., El Segundo, CA Lines: 11 Mike, just in case anybody's wondering, the order of the lines is irrelevant to the "twist" (which greatly assists the solution).... this is, after all, a *commutative* puzzle....why, just look at the... :-* (heh heh heh) To suspense! ...lori Path: mit-eddie!bu-cs!lll-winken!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!ucdavis!pollux!ez000691 From: ez000691@pollux Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Love Message-ID: <6314@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu> Date: 19 Dec 89 06:24:52 GMT References: <2883@pur-phy> Sender: uucp@ucdavis.ucdavis.edu Reply-To: ez000691@pollux (Shadow) Followup-To: alt.callahans Distribution: na Organization: University of California, Davis Lines: 125 Keywords: Life, The Universe, and Everything (42) Summary: Gee, why does this sound like something I just heard?... In article <2883@pur-phy> sterling@maxwell.physics.purdue.edu.UUCP (Bruce S. Woodcock) writes: > "No[w] I have fallen in love again. Once again, my love is not returned. >Why? I don`t know; I suspect it is because she is involved in another. "That's a durned good reason," Shadow remarks, permitting his nose to grow to sufficient length to be stuck in again. "Is she happy? Now, that is?" >I know she will be hurt by the relationship, however, and I will have to >see her cry. I only want for her what makes her happy, but I don`t wish >to replay my previous relationship. I want to comfort her, but not just as >the friend I already am to her, but as someone who loves her as well. >Why doesn`t she see that? I should think one would appreciate someone >being in love with them. Why doesn`t she appreciate what I feel? And if >she does, then why not give my love a chance? Shadow looks decidedly unhappy at this. "Oh, boy. The day I can crawl inside someone's head and figure out why he/she does or doesn't 'love' some- body else (as that word is commonly used), I'll nominate myself for a Nobel Prize. I imagine the first step would be to be able to crawl inside my own head and figure out why I care for different people in different degrees... "Don't be so certain that she doesn't see that. And 'appreciate' is a very tricky word. I prefer it's original definition in this context: be aware of and 'appreciate' the ramifications of, as opposed to feel positively about. Why doesn't she give you a chance? Well, you already suggested one very good reason why not. "It is, of course, possible that she really is oblivious, but it's a lot more likely that she knows, and has no wish to hurt you, either. If she is happy in her current relationship, it would be a Bad Thing for your friend- ship if she were to acknowledge your affections -- she cannot return them, and one or both of you will end up hurting. "The point that stirs my curiosity is your knowledge that she will be hurt by the relationship she's in? Do you know the guy well, or something like that? Why is it that you recognize this and she doesn't? Or is it simply that all relationships eventually end in tears? "Pardon me if I sound a bit cynical..." > "Let me tell you, I am not one readily taken to emotion. Most of the >time I am very rational and constrained. Yet love seems to wipe all that >out. All I want is to spend time with her, and for her to give my love a >chance. Is that a crime? Have romantics been outlawed? She openly >admits to being a romantic herself; why can`t she empathize with me? Is >my life going to be ruined again by unrequited love? Some may be tempted >to say such a thing isn`t possible; my reply is that you think so only >because it has never happened to you. To those of us to whom it has, we >know better. Please do not pass judgement on a feeling you have never felt. >(Unrequited love, that is. It is possible to have been in a two-way love >and have no inkling as to what unrequited love is like. Believe me, it >exists.) "Whoa! Slow down!" Shadow chuckles ruefully. "Take those questions one at a time, sir. Is that a crime? Of course not; it is, in my humble opinion, the most beautiful way you can feel towards another. It takes on aspects of criminality if one loses control and forces one's 'love' on ano- ther, but I certainly don't see any signs of that here. "Romantics have not been outlawed. At least," he looks around briefly, "they were still legal when I came in here...If she's a romantic herself, she almost certainly 'appreciates' your feelings, and sympathizes with you, but, again, she *loves* this other fellow... "Strange as it may sound, I know how you feel. Here's the (completely useless) advice, free of charge: don't let it ruin your life, because it can't do so unless you permit it. "I do not believe in unrequited love. Now, before you hit 'n' and ignore this, let me explain: 'Love' is, in my opinion, a verb only, not a noun. I like to think of love as that which exists between two people when they both care very deeply for each other, etc. You can *never* love some- one who does not love you in return. You may feel very strongly about her; you may feel affection, strong friendship, fascination, attraction, lust, obsession, fondness, or anything else...but unless it is returned it is not love. Unrequited love is a myth, propogated by poets bent on worshipping females without ever speaking a word to them or even learning their names. (Don't get me wrong, poetry's fine -- I'm just feeling a little bitter, in case you couldn't tell.) "But what you are feeling, whatever it is, I acknowledge, and I rec- ognize the power of it. And it's in your hands. You have to keep it from ruining your life again." > "Well, the person she says she loves is leaving after this semester >and I will have a year and a half to have our friendship grow into >something more. She`s not interested now, but she may be once he is gone >and she realizes that I truly care. But how long should I wait? Once >again, I am without answers. Shadow sighs. "Terrific. Now for the *good* news." He seems lost in memory for a moment, then recollects himself. "First, there's a good chance that if she loves him, he also loves her. That doesn't happen very often, and when it happens to someone you care about, best to let it go. If her feelings are returned, there's the possibility that they will try for a long-distance relationship. And don't try to give me that line about how long-distance re- lationships are doomed...believe me, if they are, they can take a hell of a long time. "Next, if they are in fact going to have an amicable parting but end their relationship when he leaves, it's still awfully likely that, as I said, she already knows about your feelings. If this is the case, something is bound to happen in January -- but it might not be what you hope. If you've never asked her out in the past, you could try doing so...but I'd be very very careful going beyond that point if I were you. "Now, that doesn't mean you should abandon all thoughts of getting together with her. Nothing will hurt more than biding your time for a week or two and then finding out she's begun seeing someone else before you ever spoke up. You, my friend, are caught between a stone and a tough spot. Wait a minute...that doesn't sound quite right...Whatever. The point is, take care. "If, on the other hand, nothing sparks..." He trails off, then frowns. "Don't waste your life pining after her. Don't even waste a year and a half, if you can avoid it. Trust me, it sucks. Keep her friendship, let it grow ever closer, but do not devote yourself to her if your affections are not returned." He sighs again. "I'm afraid there's no magic way to know exactly how long you should wait before accepting it. You can't rely on your feelings for this one, because they will remain with her long after your rational side has acknowledged the futility of it all. I wish I had more specific advice here, but I don't know the answer myself. The only help I can give you is what I've already said: don't let it go on forever. "And please feel free to contact me via email if you need an ear to bend. I'm good at that." > "Well, I must be going now. I shall return around the first week of >January to relate how things went over Christmas break without seeing her. "Good luck, my friend. And best wishes." Shadow -- From the only slightly twisted mind of... "In case we decide to ez000691@pollux.ucdavis.edu surrender to them, Number One." Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!mtxinu!unisoft!greywolf From: greywolf@unisoft.UUCP (The Grey Wolf) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: "..and I do appreciate you bein 'round.." Keywords: Tabbifli and Omaha, Others Message-ID: <2716@unisoft.UUCP> Date: 19 Dec 89 04:09:45 GMT References: <1989Dec14.203633.17168@athena.mit.edu> <20940016@hplred.HP.COM> Reply-To: greywolf@unisoft.UUCP (The Grey Wolf) Lines: 70 { To those who are leaving, I haven't had the chance to really talk, but I have watched your posts. It is indeed sad to see one have to leave, especially due to the short- sightedness of others, if you will pardon me. Perhaps I am in a lapse at the moment, and perhaps I am just too busy dealing with my own situation at hand, but tears just do not roll from my eyes. This doesn't mean I do not feel, for I do. I'm very sorry to see those who must leave, leave. This world is not a just place, unfortunately... Has anyone out there ever just barely begun to know someone, or just met someone, or even only heard a reference to them, when they died? In high school (that wonderful playground which serves no real academic purpose -- we're still trying to figure ourselves out socially at that point), I read in the paper about someone dying in a high speed crash along with his brother and his dad. The surviving family member was the sister... anyway, I read the article and felt this strange sense of loss, as though I had lost a friend I hadn't even met yet. Didn't cry, but it was strange. This summer I got the chance to meet someone very wonderful, as people go. He was a leather worker (gee, I guess I'm giving this away already. Oh well...), and just a fun person to be around. He knew how to make Celtic knotwork from a single strand of leather, and he knew how to throw a good party. He killed himself a month ago. I had seen him twice. I cried for him. I still don't think it was fair; I barely got to know him, and he felt much the kindred soul to me, literally -- like a brother, he was. And life went on. I think about everything he could have been; he seemed to have a lot of potential... ...what a waste. Though I am always sad to see familiar faces go, I have this new strength within me, for at least when they go, they are alive, and breathing, and full of the vitality of life. When they just die, it's so sudden. There is always something you will have wanted to tell them, even if you are with them when they die. Take ye care, friends. You will be missed. I'm sorry I haven't said more to you, or gotten to know you better. Love, hugs and warm fuzzies. By the way, in case you haven't figured it out, this is for the other people who are leaving. I hope to be here for a long time. Oh, yes. An amaretto, please, Mike...dollar's in the usual place. To the brighter side, or, it can *always* get worse. May we remember it, and may we have our sorrows long enough to remind us we are still alive. And then may we move on. } < lap lap lap lap lap >... *gulp*... *hic* ...*BAP!* [whoosh....tink] *CRASH* ( log: reason glass needs to be replaced: "Only bounced once." ) (but that's another story.) -- "Like leaves we touched, we danced; we once knew the story As Autumn called and we both remembered all those many years ago. I'm sure we know..." Path: mit-eddie!mintaka!think!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!mtxinu!unisoft!greywolf From: greywolf@unisoft.UUCP (The Grey Wolf) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Group Relationships Message-ID: <2717@unisoft.UUCP> Date: 19 Dec 89 04:34:31 GMT References: <140@boston-harbor.lucid.com> <20940014@hplred.HP.COM> <5764@internal.Apple.COM> Reply-To: greywolf@unisoft.UUCP (The Grey Wolf) Organization: "You guys are nuts! N-V-T-S nuts!" --History of the World pt. I Lines: 46 The wolf gets up and walks over to the fellow who just walked in. { Hiya, Phil! Where's yer fiddle? } In article <5764@internal.Apple.COM> zardoz@apple.com (Phillip Wayne) writes: # > / hplred:alt.callahans / hildebrd@cs.swarthmore.edu (Jeff Hildebrand) / # 3:12 pm Dec 11, 1989 / [ circles of friends/lovers ... ] # > # > > Anyone else out there have any thoughts on this? # { Yes, actually. Short and sweet. I'd have an awful hard time dealing with friend/lover circles, myself. I still firmly believe in monogamy. I guess I'm too much of a traditionalist... } # "Here's a dollar, Mike. Something appropriately alcoholic," the one eyed # man says. He takes the glass and stands to the line. "Here's to a loving # circle of friends," he says. "The best way to keep warm on a cold winter's # night." { One-eyed man? Hmmmm....I *thought* I had the right Phil... do you have a fiddle and this passion for Irish music? Or am I thinking of someone else...? } # # <+kerraasssshhh+> # # # ************************************* # * When you do it to me, it's discrimination # * When I do it to you, it's AA # ************************************* # -- These are my ideas. Oy vey, are they mine. # -- zardoz The wolf slinks back to his spot, possibly embarrassed at having found the wrong person. (Hey, ya never know until you try...) -- "Like leaves we touched, we danced; we once knew the story As Autumn called and we both remembered all those many years ago. I'm sure we know..." Path: mit-eddie!mintaka!snorkelwacker!usc!samsung!uunet!philmtl!philabs!ttidca!hollombe From: hollombe@ttidca.TTI.COM (The Polymath) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Message-ID: <8580@ttidca.TTI.COM> Date: 19 Dec 89 01:55:57 GMT References: <1989Dec9.054205.15710@agate.berkeley.edu> <20940015@hplred.HP.COM> Reply-To: hollombe@ttidcb.tti.com (The Polymath) Organization: The Cat Factory Lines: 40 In article <20940015@hplred.HP.COM> egly@hplred.HP.COM (Diana Egly) writes: }... I, for one, assume that those }who enjoy instigating flame wars are rather like the children }I know who hurt so much, and need so much attention, that they }do anything to get it -- and don't care how severe the punishment }is as long as they get noticed. ... This may be the case in many instances, but I've seen many others (and know one or two personally) where the flamer just likes to raise hell and sees the net as a safe place to do so. }... I would hope that we can avoid }flaming anyone no matter how obnoxious they get, and reserve asking }people to leave (and ingnoring them in general) for people who }intentionally inflict injury on already hurting people. I agree entirely. }How will we reach a conlcusion that someone should be asked to leave? }We need to establish a mechanism to act on this as well as to come }to agreement on what we want to do? Who (or what) will be fast eddie? A thorny question. I doubt anyone wants to be Fast Eddie and I wouldn't want to see that much power vested in a single person. If we're going to do that, we may as well make it a moderated group. Here's a thought: By consensus, flames are banned in Callahan's. It's up to each individual to decide when they've been offended enough to start ignoring a flamer. Flames should never be answered by flames, even in e-mail. We're a pretty reasonable group. I think everyone here can come to their own decision on such a point. This method also builds a little cushion into the cut-off as fewer and fewer people respond to a flamer. -- The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe, hollombe@ttidca.tti.com) Illegitimis non Citicorp(+)TTI Carborundum 3100 Ocean Park Blvd. (213) 450-9111, x2483 Santa Monica, CA 90405 {csun | philabs | psivax}!ttidca!hollombe