Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!usc!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!samsung!uunet!cbmvax!vu-vlsi!nlp From: nlp@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU (Nick Pine) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Panama Message-ID: <2883@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU> Date: 6 Jan 90 01:40:08 GMT Reply-To: nlp@vu-vlsi.UUCP (Nick Pine) Distribution: alt Organization: Villanova Univ. EE Dept. Lines: 62 I suppose this is not exactly the newsgroup for this discussion, but one might consider this to be a little discussion on the side, as would surely happen in a real-life Callahan's... I've been somewhat ashamed to be an American, lately, not for the first time. Although our invasion of Panama has had its (sometimes blackly) ludicrous sides, eg the use of rock music as persuasion, or Americans shooting foreign journalists in a crossfire at each other, or our president announcing that we didn't invade, we were invited to come down by the freely elected government of Panama, on the whole, I see arrogance. And violation, as in rape. World opinion seems to be against us. We have not been nice guys, or good neighbors. We have violated another country's 'sovereignty,' a useful concept of international law, in my opinion, having to do with the idea that what you do on your turf is basically your business. I associate this with the idea of active and passive actions, also. In my opinion, we should not invade or overthrow other governments, even if we do not like their dictators. A country may be controlled by a petty dictator, but he is THEIR dictator. If they want to get rid of him, that is THEIR business. It is not our business. I liken this somewhat to household boundaries. What you do on your property is more or less your business, subject to local law. To me, the same should apply to other countries. What if your neighbor is selling your kids cocaine? Have him arrested. What if another country is selling you cocaine? Well, are they doing it here or there? It is illegal here, by our laws, but perhaps not there, by local law or custom. Should we punish other nations for our appetites? No. They are trying to live, by their standards. As in Brazil, who, as I understood it, recently decided that, if the US were not going to buy coffee anymore because they were growing cocaine, they would simply grow more cocaine, which they COULD sell. If they come to Florida with drugs, that is bad. If we go to Panama with mafia people, that is sort of our problem... Five presidents, I think, have threatened to invade the middle east if they do not maintain our supply of oil, held essential to the American way of life. They did not exhibit the same agressiveness for energy conservation. What if your neighbors are selling your kids guns? Again, have them arrested. That is probably a crime, by local law, whether they do it at your house or theirs. Cocaine is probably equally dangerous. But the problem is basically with your kids, I think... I do not have a lot of facts in this case, but I do have opinions and impressions. No one has many facts, owing to the White House news blackout. EG, the vatican embassy seems to have a) said they would not shelter Noriega indefinitely from justice or b) said they would never kick him out, according to the evening news. I suspect the truth, should it ever be known, has to do with the US troops that surrounded the embassy, "guaranteeing safe passage." I used to have arguments with a French person about this. Should the US be the world police? If not, who will defend Europe (Europe?) He lived in Normandy when we 'invaded' France. I would ask, what if the US decided the government of France was bad, and sent people to overthrow it or assassinate Miterrand? He said some governments are good and some are bad. How to decide? He was a serious Christian. Not a problem for him. But if the US refuses to recognize the UN or the world court, how can we decide? -Nick Pine Path: mit-eddie!wuarchive!decwrl!shelby!csli!cphoenix From: cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU (Chris Phoenix) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: doubt Message-ID: <11631@csli.Stanford.EDU> Date: 6 Jan 90 10:26:01 GMT Sender: cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU (Chris Phoenix) Reply-To: cphoenix@csli.stanford.edu (Chris Phoenix) Organization: Center for the Study of Language and Information, Stanford U. Lines: 157 Well, after blithely dispensing my advice and empathy, now I need some. I'll start at the beginning, since there are probably lots of people out there who have never seen me before. I'll try to keep the background short. Before I got to college, I was very antisocial and closed off behind a very thick wall. When I went to Clarkson University my freshman year, I decided to start interacting with other people more. That was where I learned the rudiments of social convention, smalltalk, etc. I transferred here to Stanford for my sophomore year. Until this year, my senior one, I was just slowly learning social rules and becoming more mature. Late last year I met Steve, and this year he started teaching me the social rules. I learned that most of the secret of being socially acceptable, at least in undergrad society, was to build up a very careful mask and follow rules that basically limited real contact between people. About the middle of the quarter, I realized how dangerous these rules are, and how hard it is to take the mask off once you get used to it. I decided not to cultivate the mask anymore, but to be as open as possible. Soon after that, a woman in one of my classes sent me e-mail, and a week later we were together. Things were going great. I had realized the danger of masks in time to take mine off, and I had enough friends who weren't afraid of me without it. And I had Ina, and our relationship was wonderful and we were totally honest with each other and it was totally the opposite of the way Steve's rules said it had to be. Let me tell you a little bit about Ina. She's 25. I'm 18. She's Hindu. I'm Christian. She had been at Stanford for 8 years, and had had many serious relationships. I had been there for 2 years, and had had one relationship, and it had lasted a week. But despite all our differences, the relationship was working. So I thought. She came back after spending Christmas with her family, and said that we had to end the relationship. There was no way she could marry into a Christian family, and she just couldn't be in a dead-end relationship--I'm not sure there is such a thing, for her. But she still wanted to be friends. We had become friends almost instantly, and she was a good enough friend that I wasn't crushed by the relationship ending. This was a week ago. Since then, I had been spending several nights sleeping at her house, since the dorms weren't open yet. I told Steve that we had broken up. He had predicted that it wouldn't last long, and he was right. He thought the reason she gave for the break-up wasn't the real reason--she'd had a years-long relationship with a Christian before. He also repeated what he'd told me much earlier--that people did not stay friends after a breakup. This time, he added that I should try to find out and analyze as much as possible as soon as possible (he saw the relationship, at least partly, as a training exercise for me) because Ina wasn't going to communicate with me much longer, at least not honestly. Of course, I totally rejected this. When I mentioned that I had slept at her house, he said "Wait a minute--you said you broke up with Ina. Why are you spending time with her?" "Because we're *friends*, Steve!" "I guess I just have trouble with the idea of being friends after a breakup." Things like this convinced me that his outlook was very wrong. I was glad--I hadn't liked any of the social rules he was telling me. Can anyone see it coming yet? Tonight, she cut us apart. Totally, and probably irrevocably. I called her, like I'd said I would, and she said, I'm very angry with you. You're not treating me like a person. You aren't giving me the respect of assuming I mean what I say. It's not worth it to be friends with you. I can't have any good times with you. You're not who I thought you were. We won't talk again. I'd sensed that she was upset, but I'd thought it was because of various other complications in her life at this time. I had no clue that anything like this was coming. She told me that she had decided it that day. She told me what the final straw was, that made her realize all this. That morning, she was going to find out one of her grades. I knew she was worried about having to repeat the class. I asked her if I could know what it was. She said that I "probably" couldn't. Before she went to get it, she told me she wanted to be alone, since she wouldn't have time the rest of the day. After she got it, I met her accidentally, and asked if she'd tell me what it was. "Why?" "I dunno... I'm curious." "Tough!" That was the last thing said until the phone call. From her point of view, it was very rude of me to ask the second time. She'd told me that she didn't want me to know it, and I didn't respect her choice enough to not ask again. And I couldn't have had any good motive for asking. From my point of view, it's totally different. Asking about grades, among most of my friends, is little more than smalltalk. She had only said "probably" when I asked her the first time. She might change her mind after she actually knew her grade. And as her friend, I think it's reasonable to be concerned about whether she'd have to retake the class, which was very unpleasant for both of us. And I'd gotten my paper the day before, out of box that held all of them. If I'd wanted to pry, I could have looked then. I don't think I explained this just to justify myself. No matter which interpretation you pick, I think it's important to knowing what went on. And I want to know what other people think of this. I think we can all guess what Steve's interpretation of this will be. I think most people would have the same one. She didn't really want to stay friends, and she picked a fight to convince me to stay away. If Steve reads this before I tell him, he's probably saying "I told you so." I don't want Steve to be right. I'd like to think that his rules didn't always apply, that it is possible to have with someone what I thought I had with Ina. But he's been right with all of his other rules, at least for the society of students here. If Ina and I really had what I thought we did, then the best relationship that I can dream up is worse than one of Steve's design. It doesn't last as long, it isn't as fulfilling, and it ends more bitterly. On the other hand, at some point during the telephone conversation trust came into question, and Ina said that if she trusted everyone she would just get hurt again. So maybe we didn't have it after all. I don't know if she really trusted me or not. Steve would say, pragmatically, that she had no reason to trust me, and it would be much safer not to, therefore she wouldn't and she didn't. But if I follow that kind of thinking, then I can't trust anyone else either. It's always safer to not trust. It spreads like the masks and rules spread. Can anyone give me any reason to think that Steve isn't right? There's another possibility. Ina could be right. All this time, I could have been seeing her just as an object, not respecting her as an adult, not really caring about her. This is a scary thought. If I learn things from my family, I could certainly have picked this up quite easily. I could have another wall or two that I never found and knocked down, and she might have sensed that I was walling her off. Sometimes, I have worried about the same thing--even before I met her, I sometimes felt that other people were unreal to me. I hope that it's not true, because if it is I don't think there's any way I can change it. But I don't think anyone else can give me any help here. There's a third possibility. She might have put me on a pedestal, seen me as better than I was. I'm pretty sure that she did this to some extent. What I don't know is how it affected her when she realized that I wasn't as good as she thought I was. It may not have anything to do with what she did. But it's possible that she was bitter at seeing another dream disintegrate, at seeing who I am and realizing that she was wrong to think I was Mr. Right. It's possible that, realizing this, she refused to accept that she had been fooled--unintentionally, even, since I never tried to make myself "look good"-- so she had to blame it on me, and make me the villain. There's a fourth possibility. We might be on such different wavelengths that the innocuous things I did really did seem that bad to her. In a way I like this one best, since neither of us is at fault--except that she couldn't believe I didn't mean the things as they seemed to her. I don't know how likely it is, though. I'm sure there are other possibilities, and I'm sure I could think of others that would leave neither of us in the wrong, but I won't bother. I don't really need reassurance that I'll find someone else, or that things will get better. I know someone out there will be interested in me eventually. What I need is reassurance that it doesn't have to be like this-- that I won't necessarily objectify and dehumanize the next woman I have a relationship with, and that she won't necessarily follow those hated rules that I've been trying so hard to run away from. On the other hand, I doubt that anyone can say anything that will make me feel very much better. I don't think there are any right answers to this question. The thing I want least is lies designed to make me feel better. I just want your honest opinion: What happened? If anyone wants more detail, I'll try to give it, but I can't think of anything else that's very important right now. Finally, a relatively personal note. Ina, if you're reading this, you're probably very angry with me by now. Both for splashing the problem across the net, and for doubting you this way. I'm sorry in advance, but I have to do this. I need help, and this group is the only place I can turn right now. -- Chris Phoenix | A harp is a nude piano. cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU | "More input! More input!" Life is the only game in which the object of the game is to learn the rules. Disclaimer: I want a kinder, gentler net with a thousand pints of lite. Path: mit-eddie!bloom-beacon!eru!luth!sunic!tut!ousrvr!news From: so-luru@stekt.oulu.fi (Ari Husa OH8NUP) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: True confessions part n (Re: A new one, new?) Summary: I am in a great mood now for a change! Keywords: addiction, rhythm, friendship Message-ID: Date: 6 Jan 90 09:47:55 GMT References: Sender: news@ousrvr.oulu.fi Distribution: alt Organization: United Lusers Against SO Prefix Lines: 69 In-reply-to: so-tvk@stekt.oulu.fi's message of Sat, 6 Jan 90 02:02:54 GM Before Tommi has enough time to turn around and leave, the bear-like redhead (who seems to be in a great deal better mood now than usually) calls him to sit at his table. "You really do need some rest... and so do I (you remember how I fell asleep at the concert the 2nd day of this year..?)" Luru grins at him. "There is a problem, though, and I think you know what it is, too." Now he aims his speech to everyone in the room. "I have been told to be hooked by the Net - as I know you must have. Some call me irc junkie, some call me other names (some even call me a friend, which is flattering). I somewhat disagree. I am not hooked up by the Net. I am hooked by you people. Yes, you. Some of which I even call Friends. And that is a lot to be said, mind you." "There would be a life-long carrier for some computer-literate psychologist in alt.callahans, IRC private channels, and people talking to each other in a same room - via terminals. But I don't care. Virtual life.. maybe. But nevertheless, real people. Isn't it amazing how well one can tell if the other guy is playing a role or just being himself.. or how much feelings are changed through keyboards and glowing screens of terminals?" "To Tommi's "new year resolution" (and mine) - although I wouldn't like to call it that - it does present a problem. How are we going to be in touch with all these wonderful people on the other side of the world? Call this addiction, call this affection, call it anything you want.. but I don't want to loose them! Nevertheless, I *must* make a decision to cut my irc time *considerably*. I simply cannot afford it. My whole life is on stake, quite literally." "My rhythm has already returned almost normal (getting sleepy at 10PM, falling asleep around midnight) - but so far I am feeling nothing but frustrated.. several times already I have had to say "no" to friends who would like to talk to me.. more or less straight up to their face. That doesn't feel good. Nor does it seem right." "Maybe when I catch up with the Real Life (hah!) too.. but I do need some support from you to make it. Please don't feel hurt if I leave early. And please tell me to go to bed when you realize it is late over here! And I believe Tommi needs the same.. eh?" Tommi doesn't say a word... just takes another sip of his drink. "No more staying up all night. Not if there is a great need indeed." He grins, disgusted with himself (no, this is not a contradiction in terms!): "Hey, why am I so serious again? I feel reasonably good.. and there is a long weekend coming up.. Of the other stuff you said... we have talked about some of the subjects, some of them are yet to be discussed.. but let's do that later.. I'll drink to Love!" Luru P. S. A side note.. to my knowledge, The Coalition Party has been in the government.. but just a fairly long time ago - don't want to mix politics into this, I am just reading your article here. -- /// Ari Husa OH8NUP so-luru@stekt.oulu.fi o-o --... ...-- o Ham Radio Operators Do It In Higher Frequency Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!apple!mips!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucsd!ucsdhub!celit!fpssun!mbn From: mbn@fpssun.fps.com (Mike Northam ext 2651) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Good things on TV Message-ID: <5051@sns4.fps.com> Date: 6 Jan 90 08:00:26 GMT References: <358@sixhub.UUCP> Reply-To: mbn@fpssun.fps.com (Mike Northam ext 2651) Distribution: alt Organization: FPS Computing, Beaverton,OR Lines: 37 In article <358@sixhub.UUCP> davidsen@sixhub.UUCP (bill davidsen) writes: | | The cold wind sends a blast of cold air in the door as the tall | bearded man walks in. He goes to the bar and orders a Newcastle Ale. | After a few minutes he walks over and turns on the TV which nobody | seemed to remember was there. "Mike, when did'ja get the TV? I thought we only had the piano over there for entertainment?" Mike replies, "well, it's an experiment. Only on Thursday night, just this week. Back to normal next week. Here, have your usual (a Cabernet Sauvignon, cheaper variety) on the house, for your trouble." I says, "No problem, Mike, thought you might have brought it in for the fight on TV tomorrow night, is all. Listen, I've got good news, here's 20 $1 bills (Mike doesn't take anything but ones, as we all know), how's about buying the house a round? Jake, come on over and get a fresh Bushmill's! Doc, here's a Scotch for you..." Grabbing my wine, I wander over to the chalk line and state: "Here's to happiness, and frivolity; let the good times roll! There's been an awful lot of sad talk in here lately, and I certainly don't begrudge that, as them that needs, finds there way here somehow, but let's not all forget the main reason for Callahan's (a nod in Mike's direction), funs and puns! Why whine when you can wine? (Or wine not kick back and enjoy yourselves.) A satisfying groan emanates from the twenty holding glasses on high. Ahhh, Callahan's again.... **CRASH CRASH CRASH ** (Mike is going to have to get up early to sweep out the fireplace now!) -- Mike Northam mbn@fpssun.fps.com Home:123 11' 40"W 45 37' 14"N (503) 641-3151 x2651 {tektronix}!nosun!fpssun!mbn *FPS Computing has a company spokesperson, and it's certainly not me* "Every now and then things become clear." Jane Siberry, "The Walking" Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!apple!mips!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucsd!ucsdhub!celit!fpssun!news From: news@fpssun.fps.com (news) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Who is this guy anyway? Message-ID: <5053@sns4.fps.com> Date: 6 Jan 90 08:13:41 GMT References: <347@88opensi.UUCP> Reply-To: mbn@fpssun.fps.com (Mike Northam ext 2651) Organization: FPS Computing, Beaverton,OR Lines: 19 In article <347@88opensi.UUCP> ed@88opensi.UUCP (Ed Anderson) writes: | | "Mike, make this one a tall cold glass of milk. Thanks", he exchanges a dollar | (Well everything else seems to cost a dollar, why be different?) for the | glass of _udder deliight_ (I had to say that). This is really milking for a pun. How dairy'ou do such a thing? I guess I'll have to whey't 'till the next posting. (Sorry...this _is_ Callahan's after all, and I am just trying to bring a bit of cheer to your tale. There is always a future, and it may well be better... thanks for sharing with us.) -- Mike Northam mbn@fpssun.fps.com Home:123 11' 40"W 45 37' 14"N (503) 641-3151 x2651 {tektronix}!nosun!fpssun!mbn *FPS Computing has a company spokesperson, and it's certainly not me* "Every now and then things become clear." Jane Siberry, "The Walking" Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!apple!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucsd!ucsdhub!celit!fpssun!mbn From: mbn@fpssun.fps.com (Mike Northam ext 2651) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Snack time. (Pun Alert!) Message-ID: <5054@sns4.fps.com> Date: 6 Jan 90 08:56:55 GMT References: Reply-To: mbn@fpssun.fps.com (Mike Northam ext 2651) Distribution: na Organization: FPS Computing, Beaverton,OR Lines: 18 In article hildebrd@cs.swarthmore.edu (Jeff Hildebrand) writes: [set-up deleted] | so he | asked "Pardon me Tois, is that the Shadow's Nuget you chew?" | | Enjoying the resulting groans, Hildebaby tosses his glass into | the fireplace. Well, after all, this is a _bar_, so I'll guess we'll have to _chew_ on this for a while. The whole affair seems pretty _sticky_ to me (and my fingers). Of these puns I'm rather fondant don't tell me otherwise. :-) -- Mike Northam mbn@fpssun.fps.com Home:123 11' 40"W 45 37' 14"N (503) 641-3151 x2651 {tektronix}!nosun!fpssun!mbn *FPS Computing has a company spokesperson, and it's certainly not me* "Every now and then things become clear." Jane Siberry, "The Walking" Path: mit-eddie!mintaka!think!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!njin!princeton!phoenix!jwbirdsa From: jwbirdsa@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (James Webster Birdsall) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: doubt Summary: I've seen this before... Message-ID: <12738@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> Date: 6 Jan 90 22:20:48 GMT References: <11631@csli.Stanford.EDU> Organization: Princeton University, NJ Lines: 81 The scarecrow in the emerald cloak speaks: "Chris, you aren't the only one to come slamming up against the incomprehensible. Same thing happened to me this fall, and the most pleasant explanation I have to date is that her thought patterns are just so alien that I'll never understand why... which is hardly a pleasant explanation. I have no words of useful wisdom, but here at least is a story... "I had known Helen for a couple of years. We met via RELAY (on BITNET, for you who don't recognize the name) and were pretty good friends. Anyway, a couple weeks before Christmas 1988, I realized that I was interested in her. The way I chose to communicate this turned out to be a bad choice and I had a hairy couple of weeks there, but eventually got it straightened out and lo and behold, she wasn't averse to the idea. "But neither did she seem terribly enthused, so when I got back after Christmas, I just let the subject lie. I figured if she was actually interested, eventually she would bring it up. But nothing happened -- we continued to talk like before. So I figured that she wasn't interested and was just as glad that the sujbect had been dropped. "Thus, when another possibility cropped up, I decided to pursue it. I told Helen, and it turned out that she was actually interested and thought she had been demonstrating it." He takes a swig from his drink and pauses. "In retrospect, I suppose that should have told me something right there. But... "Anyway, she said she wanted me to be happy and was willing to let go, and I said I would always be her friend, and all the usual bushwah. Well, about a month after that, two things happened: "One, it turned out that the 'new possibility' had actually been using me to get rid of her previous boyfriend and didn't give a hoot about me. I was a useful tool... "Two, I actually met Helen in person. She goes to school in Ottawa. "Well, that swung the balance way the hell the other way. And I figured that the problems encountered previously could be overcome if I just allowed for cultural differences -- Helen was born and raised in Singapore -- and the rest of the spring went quite well. I was very happy... "Got back in the fall after not having heard from her all summer, even though I'd sent several letters. After a couple of very slow-motion exchanges via email, I finally got fed up and said, 'Could you at least try to email me every could of days?' "Wow. Like you, Chris, I got a flaming response to what I thought was a perfectly legitimate request. And the stranger thing is that she was mostly mad about something I _didn't_ accuse her of! "In the same letter, I'd said 'I was disappointed that you didn't write me over the summer. I know you've never done it before, but I'd been hoping that our relationship would change that. However, that's the way you are and I accept it.' But for some reason she reacted badly. "So, after thinking about it for a week, I sent back email that said, 'You know, I've gone well out of my way trying to make you happy. Now I make one small request of you and I get flamed for it.' And the response came back: 'What have you done for me?' "At which point, I gave up because it just _wasn't_ working. To this day, I still don't understand her motivations or thought processes. "Because it is a provable fact that I'd done many things for her. BY HER OWN ADMISSION! I have the archives to prove it, too. "Anyway, I analyze it like this: if she was actually interested in me, in the way I understand the term, she would have at least been willing to talk about it, instead of basically just saying 'no.' Or she may have been using me all along, talking to me when it was convenient for her and ignoring me when it wasn't, and when I asked her to talk more, she decided that the effort she was going to have to put in to keep me outweighed the benefits... "For obvious reasons, I'd not like to think that. I don't want to think of her as that sort of person, and I don't like to think that I'm _that_ blind to reality. "So I'm left with the idea that her point of view is so far different from mine that I just can't understand what makes her tick." He pauses again for a few seconds. "As for being friends afterward, it's hard to say. Helen was my one real relationship so far, and she's not speaking to me anymore. On the other hand, two of the best friends I've ever had are also failed almost-relationships. So the evidence is inconclusive... "Well, that's the story. No words of wisdom, but rest assured one and all that you aren't the only person to have been completely baffled." -- James W. Birdsall jwbirdsa@phoenix.Princeton.EDU jwbirdsa@pucc.BITNET ...allegra!princeton!phoenix!jwbirdsa Compu$erve: 71261,1731 "For it is the doom of men that they forget." -- Merlin Path: mit-eddie!wuarchive!cs.utexas.edu!rutgers!njin!princeton!phoenix!jmdoyle From: jmdoyle@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Jennifer Doyle) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: I'm back! Message-ID: <12747@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> Date: 7 Jan 90 02:08:29 GMT Organization: or, conversely, Chaos: Lines: 32 Ulp! I'm *really*, *really* sorry I didn't do the polite thing and mention that I was going to bo gone for almost 3 weeks. Oh, well. Any way, on to my rambling post...The usual, please, Mike. Thanks. First of all, I appear to have missed articles from Dec. 19-20, and from Dec. 23-26. If some kind soul has saved them (I have no clue how to deal with the archive, help me please, GEM!) or can at least update me, I'd be very grateful. Second, welcome to all the new faces, and hello to Skitch! Glad you could make it. I hope you can stay a while. Third, if anyone can get me an IRC connection, I'd be a really happy camper. My old one has gone, and I miss IRCallahan's. I'm happy to see all the crossovers from there, though. And, finally, all of you should read Terry Pratchett. After hearing about him over in r.a.sf-lovers, I got 2 of his books. They're great! At least, the first one is, so far. Kind of like Douglas Adams, only fantasy instead of SF. Ah, well, that's all for now... To good grades! (I haven't had finals yet :( ) Jen -- "Make mine a root beer, Mike. Thanks. To communication! " ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jennifer Doyle // Princeton '92 // jmdoyle@phoenix.princeton.edu Disclaimer: I am a student, I represent the future. Path: mit-eddie!wuarchive!uunet!mailrus!rutgers!njin!princeton!phoenix!jmdoyle From: jmdoyle@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Jennifer Doyle) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: A toast to my best friend... Message-ID: <12755@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> Date: 7 Jan 90 05:14:55 GMT References: <9001051340.aa20022@CC1.PICA.ARMY.MIL> Reply-To: jmdoyle@phoenix.Princeton.EDU (Jennifer Mary Doyle) Organization: or, conversely, Chaos: Lines: 19 Jen picks up one of the glasses, and downs it quickly. After reeling a bit, (I usually *sip* this stuff, slowly!) she steps to the line. "To love and marriage, may we find whatever of them we wish!" You are a brave soul, to be in her wedding. I'm not sure I could do the same. You're lucky to have such a friend, and she's even luckier to have you. I hope you find someone who shares your love romantically as well as friendshipwise. Jen p.s. (for Scott) I'm back on campus now, with an answering machine no less! Switch phone numbers. I'm also checking email regularly again. -- "Make mine a root beer, Mike. Thanks. To communication! " ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jennifer Doyle // Princeton '92 // jmdoyle@phoenix.princeton.edu Disclaimer: I am a student, I represent the future. Path: mit-eddie!rutgers!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!clotho!flynn From: flynn@clotho.acm.rpi.edu (Kevin Lincoln Flynn) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: A return, and encouragement Summary: Hooooooooooooooooo boy. Message-ID: Date: 7 Jan 90 07:03:28 GMT Reply-To: kgh@pawl.rpi.edu (Kevin Lincoln Flynn) Organization: The Voice of Fate Lines: 113 The door opens; though it's dark outside, it's not storming at the moment and the darkness seems a bit mellower, more friendly. The breeze that blows in is not warm, but it's not a wild, freezing howl through the doorway, and it car- ries no snow or rain. Flynn steps through the door, dressed much as the last time he arrived here -- long black cape, this time with the hood thrown back, black leather boots, faded jeans and a black shirt. Again he stands his boken by the side of the door and hangs up the cape before making his way to the bar. With him is a rather large (for a penguin) penguin. Flynn lays two singles on the bar and clears his throat. "Hi Mike... good to be back. How about a mug of hot chocolate with Bailey's, and a block of ice for Penguin?" Mike (being Mike) glances down at the penguin, shrugs bemusedly, and turns away to make Flynn's drink; when he returns, he has a huge glass mug in the one hand and a block of ice in the other. He pushes one of the singles away. "Ice is free," he says with a smile, and Flynn laughs. "Thanks." Ignoring the odd looks from those few patrons who aren't yet used to odd cratures showing up, Flynn and the penguin make their way through the crowd (Flynn holding the mug and taking occasional sips, Penguin slurping contentedly at the block of ice) to the table at which Tabbifli's pillow is set. "Mind if we join you?" The Tabbifli looks up at Flynn and purrs her welcome, and Flynn and Penguin sit. There follows a period of time during which it seems that introductions around the Tabbifli's table are made, marked with hugs and lively conversation, and to the careful observer it becomes apparent that Flynn's companion... flickers. As if the penguin isn't entirely here, but is instead elsewhere and here by virtue of being so much a part of Flynn's mind. When the mug in Flynn's hand is almost empty he looks around, down into the mug for a moment, over at Penguin, sweeps his gaze around the room, taking in his friends and (hopefully) friends-to-be; then he stands, walks over and toes the line. "Just got back home today; decided I'd drop in and catch up on the news here. Wow. So much pain; even looking back over it, dead and frozen on the page there, was... a little rough. A bit frightening... I wish I could help more. I'm new at this; what empathy I have I've only known for three months, and don't wholly trust yet, but it's enough to give me a constant link to my girlfriend Cathy..." He smiles, and light swirls around the penguin, clearing to reveal a lovely oriental lady, still with that flickering half-here quality. "She looks like a penguin when she wears her ski coat, so I've started calling her that," Flynn explains with a grin. "Y'all'll meet her for real soon enough, I think." He clears his throat and looks down for a moment. "I ima- gine it seems like I'm just rambling along, but I do have something to say. I'm twenty years old right now; I spent the first 18 years of my life feeling totally and completely alone. My relationship with my parents is very poor; I remember only once being able to open up to them with a problem, and that was nine years ago. No girlfriend in high school and damn few friends, if any. I remember thinking about suicide. I'm not sure why I never killed myself; I guess it just didn't make enough sense to me, or I was too afraid of how it would feel. (I have a _very_ vivid imagination.) "I met my first girlfriend in college; things were fine for three months and we hung on for a month after that because I was afraid to go back to being alone. In retrospect, I think she wanted me because I was available and at- tractive enough to take to bed. When she finally admitted to staying with me purely out of a sense of 'loyalty,' I was furious. I _almost_ attacked her. I'm VERY glad that I stopped myself. It scares me to think about that. I didn't go out with anyone else for close to a year. My second girlfriend I 'rescued' from an abusive relationship, and things turned sour after about three months there, and again we hung on another month for various reasons. We were backing off, seeing other people, when I met Cathy. Shortly after that, my second ex found someone else for herself, and we left each other for good, and I started going out with Cathy. About that time, three months ago, is when I realized that I could tell how Cathy felt without asking, as she can with me, and started trying to apply it to others, and I've been learning from there." He pauses, as it searching for words, takes a small sip from his almost-empty mug. "Now, after 18 years of loneliness before even getting a TASTE of what I was missing, I have someone in my life that I can honestly believe will stay with me -- because she _wants_ to, because what we feel is real. I don't feel lonely anymore; I can feel her, wherever I go. It's wonderful. I truthfully didn't think I would ever find someone like Cathy; I seriously expected to spend the rest of my life alone, and it terrified me, because I expect to live a _long_ time. "Now I won't have to be alone." He smiles, and lifts the mug. "A toast, friends. Whatever happens, _don't give up._ There's something good waiting for you somewhen. '...So don't yield to the fortunes You sometimes see as fate, It may have a new perspective On a different day, And if you don't give up, And don't give in, You may just be okay....'" He smiles. "Not my words, those -- Mike & the Mechanics'." The grin widens as he empties the mug. "SKAAL!" The mug flies. <<<<<>>>>> And Flynn swaps another single for another mug of hot chocolate with anti- freeze, then walks back to his table and sits, looking at 'Cathy' and smiling as he sips his drink. -------------------- The reply-to has been replaced with a known good address. 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