Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!apple!rutgers!cbmvax!vu-vlsi!nlp From: nlp@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU (Nick Pine) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: More of an introduction Message-ID: <2886@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU> Date: 8 Jan 90 21:31:22 GMT Reply-To: nlp@vu-vlsi.UUCP (Nick Pine) Distribution: alt Organization: Villanova Univ. EE Dept. Lines: 58 Well, I'm an oldie too, 43. Married for 15 years, rather independently. My wife and I have lived in different cities or countries for about 2 years of that, for family and 2-career reasons, which makes for interesting psychological space and enormous phone bills. I've just finished working for 6 months in France, as an engineer for an electronics company. My wife's first email message said: "Study people like a subject in school. Watch for what interests them and watch how they react." She is much better with people. Who am I? This question scares me, because writing down the answer tends to fix me like a bug on a pin, I think. I'm fairly introverted and spend a lot of time alone, not all of it by choice. I like Bach. I sing, not often enough. I have a very strange sort of deadpan sense of humor. My favorite book may be J. P. Donleavy's Singular Man, although I read Callahan's Crosstime Saloon and enjoyed it. I read talk.bizarre and post there once in a while, which requires courage. I was 23 before I discovered women, in any sense. I wonder about this lost part of my adolescence. I'm very quick to be intimate with people, sometimes too quick, and I often make the mistake of assuming that people are just like me. I make friends for life. One very close friend was first in our class at Cornell in 1968. I was closer to last. I've only seen him twice since then, I think, and we hardly ever talk, but we are still very close. I was miserable in school, and should have taken some time off to get some perspective, and come back when I wanted to be there, but the pressure to get out there and start earning money (my family was fairly poor, at times) and avoid the draft and the stigma of "giving up," even for a little while, kept me there. Most of my relationships with women have ended in disaster. One exception is a psychologist friend, now married, whom I know as I know my friend from school. But much more intuitively. When we are together, I feel as if I'm in a trance, some sort of formless slow-motion. One of my earliest experiences with women was when I called a girl up for a date (age 25?) She said she was busy. I called back. Still busy. Again. Still busy. Again. She started crying. Her brother got on the phone and threatened bodily harm. "Don't you understand, she's BUSY!" I can laugh now, sort of. I get up early in the morning. Sometimes at 3 or 4. This is the best time to think, eg about solar energy for heating houses, an idea I still like. I'm not used to the idea that relationships end, even if people die. Once the shell is broken and I'm intimate with someone, I expect that person to remain intimate with me and respond to me forever. To make some time in their life for me. To answer letters or email. To tell me if I offend them, and try very hard to "work things out." Nothing is more hideous for me than waiting for a letter that never comes back from someone with whom I've been closely in touch. Well, let's see. Oh. What do I look like? I have a beard. "To truth" Nick Pine PS: I enjoy corresponding with people by email. Feel free to write, or at least to try to. nlp@vu-vlsi.UUCP or rutgers!vu-vlsi!nlp might work, possibly. Our pyramid is changing to a Sun 4/330, which may make mail glitch . . . Path: mit-eddie!wuarchive!usc!snorkelwacker!apple!rutgers!cbmvax!vu-vlsi!nlp From: nlp@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU (Nick Pine) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: More of an introduction Message-ID: <2886@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU> Date: 8 Jan 90 21:31:22 GMT Reply-To: nlp@vu-vlsi.UUCP (Nick Pine) Distribution: alt Organization: Villanova Univ. EE Dept. Lines: 58 Well, I'm an oldie too, 43. Married for 15 years, rather independently. My wife and I have lived in different cities or countries for about 2 years of that, for family and 2-career reasons, which makes for interesting psychological space and enormous phone bills. I've just finished working for 6 months in France, as an engineer for an electronics company. My wife's first email message said: "Study people like a subject in school. Watch for what interests them and watch how they react." She is much better with people. Who am I? This question scares me, because writing down the answer tends to fix me like a bug on a pin, I think. I'm fairly introverted and spend a lot of time alone, not all of it by choice. I like Bach. I sing, not often enough. I have a very strange sort of deadpan sense of humor. My favorite book may be J. P. Donleavy's Singular Man, although I read Callahan's Crosstime Saloon and enjoyed it. I read talk.bizarre and post there once in a while, which requires courage. I was 23 before I discovered women, in any sense. I wonder about this lost part of my adolescence. I'm very quick to be intimate with people, sometimes too quick, and I often make the mistake of assuming that people are just like me. I make friends for life. One very close friend was first in our class at Cornell in 1968. I was closer to last. I've only seen him twice since then, I think, and we hardly ever talk, but we are still very close. I was miserable in school, and should have taken some time off to get some perspective, and come back when I wanted to be there, but the pressure to get out there and start earning money (my family was fairly poor, at times) and avoid the draft and the stigma of "giving up," even for a little while, kept me there. Most of my relationships with women have ended in disaster. One exception is a psychologist friend, now married, whom I know as I know my friend from school. But much more intuitively. When we are together, I feel as if I'm in a trance, some sort of formless slow-motion. One of my earliest experiences with women was when I called a girl up for a date (age 25?) She said she was busy. I called back. Still busy. Again. Still busy. Again. She started crying. Her brother got on the phone and threatened bodily harm. "Don't you understand, she's BUSY!" I can laugh now, sort of. I get up early in the morning. Sometimes at 3 or 4. This is the best time to think, eg about solar energy for heating houses, an idea I still like. I'm not used to the idea that relationships end, even if people die. Once the shell is broken and I'm intimate with someone, I expect that person to remain intimate with me and respond to me forever. To make some time in their life for me. To answer letters or email. To tell me if I offend them, and try very hard to "work things out." Nothing is more hideous for me than waiting for a letter that never comes back from someone with whom I've been closely in touch. Well, let's see. Oh. What do I look like? I have a beard. "To truth" Nick Pine PS: I enjoy corresponding with people by email. Feel free to write, or at least to try to. nlp@vu-vlsi.UUCP or rutgers!vu-vlsi!nlp might work, possibly. Our pyramid is changing to a Sun 4/330, which may make mail glitch . . . Path: mit-eddie!mit-amt!snorkelwacker!apple!rutgers!cbmvax!vu-vlsi!nlp From: nlp@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU (Nick Pine) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: More of an introduction Message-ID: <2886@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU> Date: 8 Jan 90 21:31:22 GMT Reply-To: nlp@vu-vlsi.UUCP (Nick Pine) Distribution: alt Organization: Villanova Univ. EE Dept. Lines: 58 Well, I'm an oldie too, 43. Married for 15 years, rather independently. My wife and I have lived in different cities or countries for about 2 years of that, for family and 2-career reasons, which makes for interesting psychological space and enormous phone bills. I've just finished working for 6 months in France, as an engineer for an electronics company. My wife's first email message said: "Study people like a subject in school. Watch for what interests them and watch how they react." She is much better with people. Who am I? This question scares me, because writing down the answer tends to fix me like a bug on a pin, I think. I'm fairly introverted and spend a lot of time alone, not all of it by choice. I like Bach. I sing, not often enough. I have a very strange sort of deadpan sense of humor. My favorite book may be J. P. Donleavy's Singular Man, although I read Callahan's Crosstime Saloon and enjoyed it. I read talk.bizarre and post there once in a while, which requires courage. I was 23 before I discovered women, in any sense. I wonder about this lost part of my adolescence. I'm very quick to be intimate with people, sometimes too quick, and I often make the mistake of assuming that people are just like me. I make friends for life. One very close friend was first in our class at Cornell in 1968. I was closer to last. I've only seen him twice since then, I think, and we hardly ever talk, but we are still very close. I was miserable in school, and should have taken some time off to get some perspective, and come back when I wanted to be there, but the pressure to get out there and start earning money (my family was fairly poor, at times) and avoid the draft and the stigma of "giving up," even for a little while, kept me there. Most of my relationships with women have ended in disaster. One exception is a psychologist friend, now married, whom I know as I know my friend from school. But much more intuitively. When we are together, I feel as if I'm in a trance, some sort of formless slow-motion. One of my earliest experiences with women was when I called a girl up for a date (age 25?) She said she was busy. I called back. Still busy. Again. Still busy. Again. She started crying. Her brother got on the phone and threatened bodily harm. "Don't you understand, she's BUSY!" I can laugh now, sort of. I get up early in the morning. Sometimes at 3 or 4. This is the best time to think, eg about solar energy for heating houses, an idea I still like. I'm not used to the idea that relationships end, even if people die. Once the shell is broken and I'm intimate with someone, I expect that person to remain intimate with me and respond to me forever. To make some time in their life for me. To answer letters or email. To tell me if I offend them, and try very hard to "work things out." Nothing is more hideous for me than waiting for a letter that never comes back from someone with whom I've been closely in touch. Well, let's see. Oh. What do I look like? I have a beard. "To truth" Nick Pine PS: I enjoy corresponding with people by email. Feel free to write, or at least to try to. nlp@vu-vlsi.UUCP or rutgers!vu-vlsi!nlp might work, possibly. Our pyramid is changing to a Sun 4/330, which may make mail glitch . . . Path: mit-eddie!rutgers!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!pt.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!jt1o+ From: jt1o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Joseph L. Traub) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: A possible explanation Message-ID: Date: 8 Jan 90 21:39:09 GMT Organization: Class of '91, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 79 As Chris finishes speaking, and most of the regulars return to Callahan's after the holiday, Moonchilde looks up from his glass. It is evident that what Chris has said has sparked some pain that Moonchilde had though well and completely gone... "Mike, A tumbler of purple Jeezus please (for those of you who don't know, purple Jeezus is grape kool-aid and grain). Before I drink this, I think that I might be able to say something which might apply to you Chris." Moonchilde breathes deeply, composing himself.... "My first true girlfriend was a Hindu... Her name was Kalindi... We went out for a total of six months while I was in high school. We had met at a dance, and within three days were seeing each other. This lasted until December. During that Christmas break, she went to India to visit her family, and when she came back, she told me it was over. She didn't really give me an answer why. I was curious, but figured that all would be well, and let her be, and tried to remain friends. It worked for a while. We still saw each other during the day, and made "small-talk". I would occasionally ask her something or the other, like how she was doing in some class or the other. One day, she blew up at me when I asked her what she got on some test or other. We fought, bitterly, and she said she never wanted to talk to me again. (remember that at this time, I still had no idea why we had broken up...all she had said was that she wanted to, and I let that go) Almost a year later, I ran into her again (she had made it a point to avoid me during the rest of that school year) and she surprised me by asking me how I was doing. Needless to say, I looked at her a little strange, and asked her if that wasn't an odd question, considering that it was her who had said she never wanted to talk to me again. She got a rather sheepish/embarrased look on her face at that, and responded that she had grown up some since, and asked me to join her for lunch. I did, and for the first time in over a year, we talked. It seemed that she had broken up with me because her parents had found out she was seeing me, and I was not Hindu. She had wanted to remain friends, but found that hard, and irratating, because she REALLY wanted to be more than friends, but also was unwilling to disobey her parents (we were both 16 at the time we dated), so she had gotten angry, and snapped out at me when she was trying to cope with me being around AND her parent's not wanting me to be around her. After talking this out, we became friends again, (though never as close) and it still hurt that she was unable to tell me that the only thing "wrong" with our relation- ship was her parents. (It still hurts when I think about it). Anyway, Chris, all I can say is that if she really and truly cares for you, as a friend, or otherwise, she will come back, maybe.... It's all you can hope for." Moonchilde takes a sip of his drink. "As far as your friend being right. Well, Kalindi and I are, as I said, still friends, though we don't talk as often or as long as I would like. She is now engaged to be married to a Hindu boyfriend, and I wish her the best. So, my toast: to friendships, and honesty, neither is worth much without the other. Skaal! *Gulp* *Crash*" Moonchilde the goes over to Tabbifli. ***HUG*** "Welcome back, Faery Cat.. and to you Kevin, and you Jennifer, and to all the rest of you. There are so many of you, and I wish I could greet you all personally, but to do that would take up twice as much as this letter has already taken up." Moonchilde reaches under his cloak, and pulls out a small stuffed figure, and hands it to Tabbifli (or if she is in cat form, lays it beside her). The figure is that of a purple dragon. "A gift for you Tabbi, I found it at evecon, and Amythyst said to buy it for you, I hope you like it... (The real one is on it's way in the mail, let me know when you get it." Moonchilde settles into a chair, and relaxes, knowing that a large number of his friends are around.. _______________________________________________________________________________ ** | * * |Joseph Traub -- Carnegie Mellon * * |Internet: jt1o@andrew.cmu.edu ****************************************** |UUCP: harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!jt1o * Blessed * * Blessed * | * Be! * An it * Be! * |__________________________________ * * harm none, * * | * * do as thou * * |"If pro is the opposite of con, * * wilt. * * |then what is congress?" * IO * * IO * | * EVOHE ** EVOHE * |___________________________________ * IO * * IO * | * KORE * * KORE * |"Callahans -- It is wherever I am" * * * * | -- A friend of mine to me at * * * * | Evecon. ** ** | ___________________________________________|___________________________________ Path: mit-eddie!rutgers!cbmvax!vu-vlsi!nlp From: nlp@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU (Nick Pine) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: More of an introduction Message-ID: <2886@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU> Date: 8 Jan 90 21:31:22 GMT Reply-To: nlp@vu-vlsi.UUCP (Nick Pine) Distribution: alt Organization: Villanova Univ. EE Dept. Lines: 58 Well, I'm an oldie too, 43. Married for 15 years, rather independently. My wife and I have lived in different cities or countries for about 2 years of that, for family and 2-career reasons, which makes for interesting psychological space and enormous phone bills. I've just finished working for 6 months in France, as an engineer for an electronics company. My wife's first email message said: "Study people like a subject in school. Watch for what interests them and watch how they react." She is much better with people. Who am I? This question scares me, because writing down the answer tends to fix me like a bug on a pin, I think. I'm fairly introverted and spend a lot of time alone, not all of it by choice. I like Bach. I sing, not often enough. I have a very strange sort of deadpan sense of humor. My favorite book may be J. P. Donleavy's Singular Man, although I read Callahan's Crosstime Saloon and enjoyed it. I read talk.bizarre and post there once in a while, which requires courage. I was 23 before I discovered women, in any sense. I wonder about this lost part of my adolescence. I'm very quick to be intimate with people, sometimes too quick, and I often make the mistake of assuming that people are just like me. I make friends for life. One very close friend was first in our class at Cornell in 1968. I was closer to last. I've only seen him twice since then, I think, and we hardly ever talk, but we are still very close. I was miserable in school, and should have taken some time off to get some perspective, and come back when I wanted to be there, but the pressure to get out there and start earning money (my family was fairly poor, at times) and avoid the draft and the stigma of "giving up," even for a little while, kept me there. Most of my relationships with women have ended in disaster. One exception is a psychologist friend, now married, whom I know as I know my friend from school. But much more intuitively. When we are together, I feel as if I'm in a trance, some sort of formless slow-motion. One of my earliest experiences with women was when I called a girl up for a date (age 25?) She said she was busy. I called back. Still busy. Again. Still busy. Again. She started crying. Her brother got on the phone and threatened bodily harm. "Don't you understand, she's BUSY!" I can laugh now, sort of. I get up early in the morning. Sometimes at 3 or 4. This is the best time to think, eg about solar energy for heating houses, an idea I still like. I'm not used to the idea that relationships end, even if people die. Once the shell is broken and I'm intimate with someone, I expect that person to remain intimate with me and respond to me forever. To make some time in their life for me. To answer letters or email. To tell me if I offend them, and try very hard to "work things out." Nothing is more hideous for me than waiting for a letter that never comes back from someone with whom I've been closely in touch. Well, let's see. Oh. What do I look like? I have a beard. "To truth" Nick Pine PS: I enjoy corresponding with people by email. Feel free to write, or at least to try to. nlp@vu-vlsi.UUCP or rutgers!vu-vlsi!nlp might work, possibly. Our pyramid is changing to a Sun 4/330, which may make mail glitch . . . Path: mit-eddie!bbn!usc!cs.utexas.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!pt.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!jt1o+ From: jt1o+@andrew.cmu.edu (Joseph L. Traub) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: A possible explanation Message-ID: Date: 8 Jan 90 21:39:09 GMT Organization: Class of '91, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 79 As Chris finishes speaking, and most of the regulars return to Callahan's after the holiday, Moonchilde looks up from his glass. It is evident that what Chris has said has sparked some pain that Moonchilde had though well and completely gone... "Mike, A tumbler of purple Jeezus please (for those of you who don't know, purple Jeezus is grape kool-aid and grain). Before I drink this, I think that I might be able to say something which might apply to you Chris." Moonchilde breathes deeply, composing himself.... "My first true girlfriend was a Hindu... Her name was Kalindi... We went out for a total of six months while I was in high school. We had met at a dance, and within three days were seeing each other. This lasted until December. During that Christmas break, she went to India to visit her family, and when she came back, she told me it was over. She didn't really give me an answer why. I was curious, but figured that all would be well, and let her be, and tried to remain friends. It worked for a while. We still saw each other during the day, and made "small-talk". I would occasionally ask her something or the other, like how she was doing in some class or the other. One day, she blew up at me when I asked her what she got on some test or other. We fought, bitterly, and she said she never wanted to talk to me again. (remember that at this time, I still had no idea why we had broken up...all she had said was that she wanted to, and I let that go) Almost a year later, I ran into her again (she had made it a point to avoid me during the rest of that school year) and she surprised me by asking me how I was doing. Needless to say, I looked at her a little strange, and asked her if that wasn't an odd question, considering that it was her who had said she never wanted to talk to me again. She got a rather sheepish/embarrased look on her face at that, and responded that she had grown up some since, and asked me to join her for lunch. I did, and for the first time in over a year, we talked. It seemed that she had broken up with me because her parents had found out she was seeing me, and I was not Hindu. She had wanted to remain friends, but found that hard, and irratating, because she REALLY wanted to be more than friends, but also was unwilling to disobey her parents (we were both 16 at the time we dated), so she had gotten angry, and snapped out at me when she was trying to cope with me being around AND her parent's not wanting me to be around her. After talking this out, we became friends again, (though never as close) and it still hurt that she was unable to tell me that the only thing "wrong" with our relation- ship was her parents. (It still hurts when I think about it). Anyway, Chris, all I can say is that if she really and truly cares for you, as a friend, or otherwise, she will come back, maybe.... It's all you can hope for." Moonchilde takes a sip of his drink. "As far as your friend being right. Well, Kalindi and I are, as I said, still friends, though we don't talk as often or as long as I would like. She is now engaged to be married to a Hindu boyfriend, and I wish her the best. So, my toast: to friendships, and honesty, neither is worth much without the other. Skaal! *Gulp* *Crash*" Moonchilde the goes over to Tabbifli. ***HUG*** "Welcome back, Faery Cat.. and to you Kevin, and you Jennifer, and to all the rest of you. There are so many of you, and I wish I could greet you all personally, but to do that would take up twice as much as this letter has already taken up." Moonchilde reaches under his cloak, and pulls out a small stuffed figure, and hands it to Tabbifli (or if she is in cat form, lays it beside her). The figure is that of a purple dragon. "A gift for you Tabbi, I found it at evecon, and Amythyst said to buy it for you, I hope you like it... (The real one is on it's way in the mail, let me know when you get it." Moonchilde settles into a chair, and relaxes, knowing that a large number of his friends are around.. _______________________________________________________________________________ ** | * * |Joseph Traub -- Carnegie Mellon * * |Internet: jt1o@andrew.cmu.edu ****************************************** |UUCP: harvard!andrew.cmu.edu!jt1o * Blessed * * Blessed * | * Be! * An it * Be! * |__________________________________ * * harm none, * * | * * do as thou * * |"If pro is the opposite of con, * * wilt. * * |then what is congress?" * IO * * IO * | * EVOHE ** EVOHE * |___________________________________ * IO * * IO * | * KORE * * KORE * |"Callahans -- It is wherever I am" * * * * | -- A friend of mine to me at * * * * | Evecon. ** ** | ___________________________________________|___________________________________ Path: mit-eddie!bbn!apple!rutgers!cbmvax!vu-vlsi!nlp From: nlp@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU (Nick Pine) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: More of an introduction Message-ID: <2886@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU> Date: 8 Jan 90 21:31:22 GMT Reply-To: nlp@vu-vlsi.UUCP (Nick Pine) Distribution: alt Organization: Villanova Univ. EE Dept. Lines: 58 Well, I'm an oldie too, 43. Married for 15 years, rather independently. My wife and I have lived in different cities or countries for about 2 years of that, for family and 2-career reasons, which makes for interesting psychological space and enormous phone bills. I've just finished working for 6 months in France, as an engineer for an electronics company. My wife's first email message said: "Study people like a subject in school. Watch for what interests them and watch how they react." She is much better with people. Who am I? This question scares me, because writing down the answer tends to fix me like a bug on a pin, I think. I'm fairly introverted and spend a lot of time alone, not all of it by choice. I like Bach. I sing, not often enough. I have a very strange sort of deadpan sense of humor. My favorite book may be J. P. Donleavy's Singular Man, although I read Callahan's Crosstime Saloon and enjoyed it. I read talk.bizarre and post there once in a while, which requires courage. I was 23 before I discovered women, in any sense. I wonder about this lost part of my adolescence. I'm very quick to be intimate with people, sometimes too quick, and I often make the mistake of assuming that people are just like me. I make friends for life. One very close friend was first in our class at Cornell in 1968. I was closer to last. I've only seen him twice since then, I think, and we hardly ever talk, but we are still very close. I was miserable in school, and should have taken some time off to get some perspective, and come back when I wanted to be there, but the pressure to get out there and start earning money (my family was fairly poor, at times) and avoid the draft and the stigma of "giving up," even for a little while, kept me there. Most of my relationships with women have ended in disaster. One exception is a psychologist friend, now married, whom I know as I know my friend from school. But much more intuitively. When we are together, I feel as if I'm in a trance, some sort of formless slow-motion. One of my earliest experiences with women was when I called a girl up for a date (age 25?) She said she was busy. I called back. Still busy. Again. Still busy. Again. She started crying. Her brother got on the phone and threatened bodily harm. "Don't you understand, she's BUSY!" I can laugh now, sort of. I get up early in the morning. Sometimes at 3 or 4. This is the best time to think, eg about solar energy for heating houses, an idea I still like. I'm not used to the idea that relationships end, even if people die. Once the shell is broken and I'm intimate with someone, I expect that person to remain intimate with me and respond to me forever. To make some time in their life for me. To answer letters or email. To tell me if I offend them, and try very hard to "work things out." Nothing is more hideous for me than waiting for a letter that never comes back from someone with whom I've been closely in touch. Well, let's see. Oh. What do I look like? I have a beard. "To truth" Nick Pine PS: I enjoy corresponding with people by email. Feel free to write, or at least to try to. nlp@vu-vlsi.UUCP or rutgers!vu-vlsi!nlp might work, possibly. Our pyramid is changing to a Sun 4/330, which may make mail glitch . . . Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!apple!mips!winchester!djl From: djl@mips.COM (Dan Levin) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: doubt Summary: A More Strategic Outlook - longish Message-ID: <34252@mips.mips.COM> Date: 9 Jan 90 00:21:52 GMT References: <11631@csli.Stanford.EDU> Sender: news@mips.COM Lines: 131 In article <11631@csli.Stanford.EDU>, cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU (Chris Phoenix) writes: > Well, after blithely dispensing my advice and empathy, now I need some. I'll > start at the beginning, since there are probably lots of people out there who > have never seen me before. Such is the nature of the beast, Chris. You can only hope that those you have helped will be there for you when you need them: This is the mark of true friendship. Others have dealt with your problems with Ina in particular as well as I ever could; so let me instead point out and try to answer some of your more broadly reaching questions. I empathize most completely, since my lack of social grace and skill has cost me much over the years. > I learned that most of the secret of being socially acceptable, at > least in undergrad society, was to build up a very careful mask and follow > rules that basically limited real contact between people. The Question: The mask, necessary or nonsense? You will find, as you go through life, that most everyone puts up a facade of some kind. To be completely open to every soul you come in contact with is a great deal to ask, everyone has hidden insecurities. You must learn to understand your own facade, to realize which parts of you are real and which are for show. You must also learn to recognize the false fronts of others, and to filter their actions and words to pick out their real personality. The more you hide, the less valuable your relationships will be in a real sense. If you can never show weakness, you can never be succored. I feel very strongly that being open with people is a good thing, and that honesty is the basis of all true friendships. To be honest does not require absolutely no facade, but it does preclude the kind of smooth social face that your friend is suggesting. You may find that the first few months of any new relationship (romantic or otherwise) are spent understanding and tearing down each other's facades. Such is frequently (although unfortunately) the case - the ease of this process can tell you much about the viability of the end result. > He also repeated what he'd told me much earlier--that people did not > stay friends after a breakup. This time, he added that I should try to find > out and analyze as much as possible as soon as possible (he saw the > relationship, at least partly, as a training exercise for me) because Ina > wasn't going to communicate with me much longer, at least not honestly. The Quesion: Can we be friends after a romance. The answer: Hell Yes. If you base your romance on true friendship ( you seem to use that word very loosely, I use it very stringently. A friend is someone I trust my life to. If you can't trust your life to a lover, then maybe you shouldn't be sleeping with him/her. Someone you spend time with, go to movies with etc. is an acquaintance if you don't trust them), then that part of your relationship can survive. I am very close to a woman I lived with for 18 months, and have since broken up with. Our lives were not meant to be spent together, but she is a valuable friend. In fact, of the half-dozen women I have been involved with, I am still close to all but one. We have a little joke in the family - at Thanksgiving the family is on one side of the table and my ex's on the other :-) Anyone I put that much energy and love into too important to loose just because our romance doesn't work. Keep in mind that rebuilding a friendship after a breakup isn't easy. It takes time, and effort. It also requires the kind of honesty I mentioned above. Before you can be friends, you must agree to the cause of your differences, and to the impossibility of romance. This can take years, but if the friendship is important to you, it is well worth the effort. > If Ina and I really had what I thought we did, then the best relationship that > I can dream up is worse than one of Steve's design. It doesn't last as long, > it isn't as fulfilling, and it ends more bitterly. On the other hand, at some > point during the telephone conversation trust came into question, and Ina > said that if she trusted everyone she would just get hurt again. So maybe we > didn't have it after all. I don't know if she really trusted me or not. The Question: Can I ever really trust another person? If you ever wish to attain that state of being that philosophers call love; that state where you can draw energy and support from another at the deepest emotional level, you must be able to trust. It is a very frightening experience to realize that you are so deeply vulnerable to another; that your very core is laid open to them. It takes a great deal of time and mutual effort to reach such a state, and that vulnerability must be mutual. Once reached, this state of love is extremely powerful - it allows each partner to excel beyond their own means, to reach beyond their own capabilities. This is one of the essential messages of The Place, that while trust can never be forced (and a quick flip of the blackjack to any that try to) it allows the sharing of problems and multiplies the forces brought to bear to heal them. > I don't really need reassurance that I'll find someone else, or that things > will get better. I know someone out there will be interested in me > eventually. What I need is reassurance that it doesn't have to be like this-- > that I won't necessarily objectify and dehumanize the next woman I have a > relationship with, and that she won't necessarily follow those hated rules > that I've been trying so hard to run away from. The Question: Is my model of a "real" relationship attainable? I believe that it is. I am as honest and open as I can be, I don't hide my true personality beyond the degree necessary to protect my deepest core. I lack(ed) social skill to an extreme degree, although the years (I'm now an olde wise man at 26 :-) have been kind in that respect. I have had several lengthy romances much along the lines of your ideal: open, honest, caring, communicative. Even such a relationship is no cake-walk. It takes a lot of hard work, and a great deal of emotional energy, but it is possible. To Sum Up: I believe very strongly in the kind of person you want to be. I also understand that to live your life in an open and honest manner usually means being cast out from the "in" clique. I have spent my adult life searching for people worthy of my friendship, and have given up social acceptability to concentrate my energy on others who share my views. You must decide what you want, to play the game and sell a trumped up vision of yourself or to hold you head up and respect people who will take you for who you really are. It is not as easy as my pontificating makes it sound, to be a pariah is not a painless thing. I believe that a single true friend is worth any number of social clingers, you have to decide if you are willing to pay the price or not. My best wishes, -- ***dan {decwrl,pyramid,ames}!mips!djl djl@mips.com (No, Really! Trust Me.) Path: mit-eddie!wuarchive!cs.utexas.edu!samsung!think!snorkelwacker!apple!mips!winchester!djl From: djl@mips.COM (Dan Levin) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: doubt Summary: A More Strategic Outlook - longish Message-ID: <34252@mips.mips.COM> Date: 9 Jan 90 00:21:52 GMT References: <11631@csli.Stanford.EDU> Sender: news@mips.COM Lines: 131 In article <11631@csli.Stanford.EDU>, cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU (Chris Phoenix) writes: > Well, after blithely dispensing my advice and empathy, now I need some. I'll > start at the beginning, since there are probably lots of people out there who > have never seen me before. Such is the nature of the beast, Chris. You can only hope that those you have helped will be there for you when you need them: This is the mark of true friendship. Others have dealt with your problems with Ina in particular as well as I ever could; so let me instead point out and try to answer some of your more broadly reaching questions. I empathize most completely, since my lack of social grace and skill has cost me much over the years. > I learned that most of the secret of being socially acceptable, at > least in undergrad society, was to build up a very careful mask and follow > rules that basically limited real contact between people. The Question: The mask, necessary or nonsense? You will find, as you go through life, that most everyone puts up a facade of some kind. To be completely open to every soul you come in contact with is a great deal to ask, everyone has hidden insecurities. You must learn to understand your own facade, to realize which parts of you are real and which are for show. You must also learn to recognize the false fronts of others, and to filter their actions and words to pick out their real personality. The more you hide, the less valuable your relationships will be in a real sense. If you can never show weakness, you can never be succored. I feel very strongly that being open with people is a good thing, and that honesty is the basis of all true friendships. To be honest does not require absolutely no facade, but it does preclude the kind of smooth social face that your friend is suggesting. You may find that the first few months of any new relationship (romantic or otherwise) are spent understanding and tearing down each other's facades. Such is frequently (although unfortunately) the case - the ease of this process can tell you much about the viability of the end result. > He also repeated what he'd told me much earlier--that people did not > stay friends after a breakup. This time, he added that I should try to find > out and analyze as much as possible as soon as possible (he saw the > relationship, at least partly, as a training exercise for me) because Ina > wasn't going to communicate with me much longer, at least not honestly. The Quesion: Can we be friends after a romance. The answer: Hell Yes. If you base your romance on true friendship ( you seem to use that word very loosely, I use it very stringently. A friend is someone I trust my life to. If you can't trust your life to a lover, then maybe you shouldn't be sleeping with him/her. Someone you spend time with, go to movies with etc. is an acquaintance if you don't trust them), then that part of your relationship can survive. I am very close to a woman I lived with for 18 months, and have since broken up with. Our lives were not meant to be spent together, but she is a valuable friend. In fact, of the half-dozen women I have been involved with, I am still close to all but one. We have a little joke in the family - at Thanksgiving the family is on one side of the table and my ex's on the other :-) Anyone I put that much energy and love into too important to loose just because our romance doesn't work. Keep in mind that rebuilding a friendship after a breakup isn't easy. It takes time, and effort. It also requires the kind of honesty I mentioned above. Before you can be friends, you must agree to the cause of your differences, and to the impossibility of romance. This can take years, but if the friendship is important to you, it is well worth the effort. > If Ina and I really had what I thought we did, then the best relationship that > I can dream up is worse than one of Steve's design. It doesn't last as long, > it isn't as fulfilling, and it ends more bitterly. On the other hand, at some > point during the telephone conversation trust came into question, and Ina > said that if she trusted everyone she would just get hurt again. So maybe we > didn't have it after all. I don't know if she really trusted me or not. The Question: Can I ever really trust another person? If you ever wish to attain that state of being that philosophers call love; that state where you can draw energy and support from another at the deepest emotional level, you must be able to trust. It is a very frightening experience to realize that you are so deeply vulnerable to another; that your very core is laid open to them. It takes a great deal of time and mutual effort to reach such a state, and that vulnerability must be mutual. Once reached, this state of love is extremely powerful - it allows each partner to excel beyond their own means, to reach beyond their own capabilities. This is one of the essential messages of The Place, that while trust can never be forced (and a quick flip of the blackjack to any that try to) it allows the sharing of problems and multiplies the forces brought to bear to heal them. > I don't really need reassurance that I'll find someone else, or that things > will get better. I know someone out there will be interested in me > eventually. What I need is reassurance that it doesn't have to be like this-- > that I won't necessarily objectify and dehumanize the next woman I have a > relationship with, and that she won't necessarily follow those hated rules > that I've been trying so hard to run away from. The Question: Is my model of a "real" relationship attainable? I believe that it is. I am as honest and open as I can be, I don't hide my true personality beyond the degree necessary to protect my deepest core. I lack(ed) social skill to an extreme degree, although the years (I'm now an olde wise man at 26 :-) have been kind in that respect. I have had several lengthy romances much along the lines of your ideal: open, honest, caring, communicative. Even such a relationship is no cake-walk. It takes a lot of hard work, and a great deal of emotional energy, but it is possible. To Sum Up: I believe very strongly in the kind of person you want to be. I also understand that to live your life in an open and honest manner usually means being cast out from the "in" clique. I have spent my adult life searching for people worthy of my friendship, and have given up social acceptability to concentrate my energy on others who share my views. You must decide what you want, to play the game and sell a trumped up vision of yourself or to hold you head up and respect people who will take you for who you really are. It is not as easy as my pontificating makes it sound, to be a pariah is not a painless thing. I believe that a single true friend is worth any number of social clingers, you have to decide if you are willing to pay the price or not. My best wishes, -- ***dan {decwrl,pyramid,ames}!mips!djl djl@mips.com (No, Really! Trust Me.) Path: mit-eddie!mit-amt!snorkelwacker!apple!mips!winchester!djl From: djl@mips.COM (Dan Levin) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: doubt Summary: A More Strategic Outlook - longish Message-ID: <34252@mips.mips.COM> Date: 9 Jan 90 00:21:52 GMT References: <11631@csli.Stanford.EDU> Sender: news@mips.COM Lines: 131 In article <11631@csli.Stanford.EDU>, cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU (Chris Phoenix) writes: > Well, after blithely dispensing my advice and empathy, now I need some. I'll > start at the beginning, since there are probably lots of people out there who > have never seen me before. Such is the nature of the beast, Chris. You can only hope that those you have helped will be there for you when you need them: This is the mark of true friendship. Others have dealt with your problems with Ina in particular as well as I ever could; so let me instead point out and try to answer some of your more broadly reaching questions. I empathize most completely, since my lack of social grace and skill has cost me much over the years. > I learned that most of the secret of being socially acceptable, at > least in undergrad society, was to build up a very careful mask and follow > rules that basically limited real contact between people. The Question: The mask, necessary or nonsense? You will find, as you go through life, that most everyone puts up a facade of some kind. To be completely open to every soul you come in contact with is a great deal to ask, everyone has hidden insecurities. You must learn to understand your own facade, to realize which parts of you are real and which are for show. You must also learn to recognize the false fronts of others, and to filter their actions and words to pick out their real personality. The more you hide, the less valuable your relationships will be in a real sense. If you can never show weakness, you can never be succored. I feel very strongly that being open with people is a good thing, and that honesty is the basis of all true friendships. To be honest does not require absolutely no facade, but it does preclude the kind of smooth social face that your friend is suggesting. You may find that the first few months of any new relationship (romantic or otherwise) are spent understanding and tearing down each other's facades. Such is frequently (although unfortunately) the case - the ease of this process can tell you much about the viability of the end result. > He also repeated what he'd told me much earlier--that people did not > stay friends after a breakup. This time, he added that I should try to find > out and analyze as much as possible as soon as possible (he saw the > relationship, at least partly, as a training exercise for me) because Ina > wasn't going to communicate with me much longer, at least not honestly. The Quesion: Can we be friends after a romance. The answer: Hell Yes. If you base your romance on true friendship ( you seem to use that word very loosely, I use it very stringently. A friend is someone I trust my life to. If you can't trust your life to a lover, then maybe you shouldn't be sleeping with him/her. Someone you spend time with, go to movies with etc. is an acquaintance if you don't trust them), then that part of your relationship can survive. I am very close to a woman I lived with for 18 months, and have since broken up with. Our lives were not meant to be spent together, but she is a valuable friend. In fact, of the half-dozen women I have been involved with, I am still close to all but one. We have a little joke in the family - at Thanksgiving the family is on one side of the table and my ex's on the other :-) Anyone I put that much energy and love into too important to loose just because our romance doesn't work. Keep in mind that rebuilding a friendship after a breakup isn't easy. It takes time, and effort. It also requires the kind of honesty I mentioned above. Before you can be friends, you must agree to the cause of your differences, and to the impossibility of romance. This can take years, but if the friendship is important to you, it is well worth the effort. > If Ina and I really had what I thought we did, then the best relationship that > I can dream up is worse than one of Steve's design. It doesn't last as long, > it isn't as fulfilling, and it ends more bitterly. On the other hand, at some > point during the telephone conversation trust came into question, and Ina > said that if she trusted everyone she would just get hurt again. So maybe we > didn't have it after all. I don't know if she really trusted me or not. The Question: Can I ever really trust another person? If you ever wish to attain that state of being that philosophers call love; that state where you can draw energy and support from another at the deepest emotional level, you must be able to trust. It is a very frightening experience to realize that you are so deeply vulnerable to another; that your very core is laid open to them. It takes a great deal of time and mutual effort to reach such a state, and that vulnerability must be mutual. Once reached, this state of love is extremely powerful - it allows each partner to excel beyond their own means, to reach beyond their own capabilities. This is one of the essential messages of The Place, that while trust can never be forced (and a quick flip of the blackjack to any that try to) it allows the sharing of problems and multiplies the forces brought to bear to heal them. > I don't really need reassurance that I'll find someone else, or that things > will get better. I know someone out there will be interested in me > eventually. What I need is reassurance that it doesn't have to be like this-- > that I won't necessarily objectify and dehumanize the next woman I have a > relationship with, and that she won't necessarily follow those hated rules > that I've been trying so hard to run away from. The Question: Is my model of a "real" relationship attainable? I believe that it is. I am as honest and open as I can be, I don't hide my true personality beyond the degree necessary to protect my deepest core. I lack(ed) social skill to an extreme degree, although the years (I'm now an olde wise man at 26 :-) have been kind in that respect. I have had several lengthy romances much along the lines of your ideal: open, honest, caring, communicative. Even such a relationship is no cake-walk. It takes a lot of hard work, and a great deal of emotional energy, but it is possible. To Sum Up: I believe very strongly in the kind of person you want to be. I also understand that to live your life in an open and honest manner usually means being cast out from the "in" clique. I have spent my adult life searching for people worthy of my friendship, and have given up social acceptability to concentrate my energy on others who share my views. You must decide what you want, to play the game and sell a trumped up vision of yourself or to hold you head up and respect people who will take you for who you really are. It is not as easy as my pontificating makes it sound, to be a pariah is not a painless thing. I believe that a single true friend is worth any number of social clingers, you have to decide if you are willing to pay the price or not. My best wishes, -- ***dan {decwrl,pyramid,ames}!mips!djl djl@mips.com (No, Really! Trust Me.)