Path: mit-eddie!bbn!think!snorkelwacker!apple!mips!winchester!djl From: djl@mips.COM (Dan Levin) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: doubt Summary: A More Strategic Outlook - longish Message-ID: <34252@mips.mips.COM> Date: 9 Jan 90 00:21:52 GMT References: <11631@csli.Stanford.EDU> Sender: news@mips.COM Lines: 131 In article <11631@csli.Stanford.EDU>, cphoenix@csli.Stanford.EDU (Chris Phoenix) writes: > Well, after blithely dispensing my advice and empathy, now I need some. I'll > start at the beginning, since there are probably lots of people out there who > have never seen me before. Such is the nature of the beast, Chris. You can only hope that those you have helped will be there for you when you need them: This is the mark of true friendship. Others have dealt with your problems with Ina in particular as well as I ever could; so let me instead point out and try to answer some of your more broadly reaching questions. I empathize most completely, since my lack of social grace and skill has cost me much over the years. > I learned that most of the secret of being socially acceptable, at > least in undergrad society, was to build up a very careful mask and follow > rules that basically limited real contact between people. The Question: The mask, necessary or nonsense? You will find, as you go through life, that most everyone puts up a facade of some kind. To be completely open to every soul you come in contact with is a great deal to ask, everyone has hidden insecurities. You must learn to understand your own facade, to realize which parts of you are real and which are for show. You must also learn to recognize the false fronts of others, and to filter their actions and words to pick out their real personality. The more you hide, the less valuable your relationships will be in a real sense. If you can never show weakness, you can never be succored. I feel very strongly that being open with people is a good thing, and that honesty is the basis of all true friendships. To be honest does not require absolutely no facade, but it does preclude the kind of smooth social face that your friend is suggesting. You may find that the first few months of any new relationship (romantic or otherwise) are spent understanding and tearing down each other's facades. Such is frequently (although unfortunately) the case - the ease of this process can tell you much about the viability of the end result. > He also repeated what he'd told me much earlier--that people did not > stay friends after a breakup. This time, he added that I should try to find > out and analyze as much as possible as soon as possible (he saw the > relationship, at least partly, as a training exercise for me) because Ina > wasn't going to communicate with me much longer, at least not honestly. The Quesion: Can we be friends after a romance. The answer: Hell Yes. If you base your romance on true friendship ( you seem to use that word very loosely, I use it very stringently. A friend is someone I trust my life to. If you can't trust your life to a lover, then maybe you shouldn't be sleeping with him/her. Someone you spend time with, go to movies with etc. is an acquaintance if you don't trust them), then that part of your relationship can survive. I am very close to a woman I lived with for 18 months, and have since broken up with. Our lives were not meant to be spent together, but she is a valuable friend. In fact, of the half-dozen women I have been involved with, I am still close to all but one. We have a little joke in the family - at Thanksgiving the family is on one side of the table and my ex's on the other :-) Anyone I put that much energy and love into too important to loose just because our romance doesn't work. Keep in mind that rebuilding a friendship after a breakup isn't easy. It takes time, and effort. It also requires the kind of honesty I mentioned above. Before you can be friends, you must agree to the cause of your differences, and to the impossibility of romance. This can take years, but if the friendship is important to you, it is well worth the effort. > If Ina and I really had what I thought we did, then the best relationship that > I can dream up is worse than one of Steve's design. It doesn't last as long, > it isn't as fulfilling, and it ends more bitterly. On the other hand, at some > point during the telephone conversation trust came into question, and Ina > said that if she trusted everyone she would just get hurt again. So maybe we > didn't have it after all. I don't know if she really trusted me or not. The Question: Can I ever really trust another person? If you ever wish to attain that state of being that philosophers call love; that state where you can draw energy and support from another at the deepest emotional level, you must be able to trust. It is a very frightening experience to realize that you are so deeply vulnerable to another; that your very core is laid open to them. It takes a great deal of time and mutual effort to reach such a state, and that vulnerability must be mutual. Once reached, this state of love is extremely powerful - it allows each partner to excel beyond their own means, to reach beyond their own capabilities. This is one of the essential messages of The Place, that while trust can never be forced (and a quick flip of the blackjack to any that try to) it allows the sharing of problems and multiplies the forces brought to bear to heal them. > I don't really need reassurance that I'll find someone else, or that things > will get better. I know someone out there will be interested in me > eventually. What I need is reassurance that it doesn't have to be like this-- > that I won't necessarily objectify and dehumanize the next woman I have a > relationship with, and that she won't necessarily follow those hated rules > that I've been trying so hard to run away from. The Question: Is my model of a "real" relationship attainable? I believe that it is. I am as honest and open as I can be, I don't hide my true personality beyond the degree necessary to protect my deepest core. I lack(ed) social skill to an extreme degree, although the years (I'm now an olde wise man at 26 :-) have been kind in that respect. I have had several lengthy romances much along the lines of your ideal: open, honest, caring, communicative. Even such a relationship is no cake-walk. It takes a lot of hard work, and a great deal of emotional energy, but it is possible. To Sum Up: I believe very strongly in the kind of person you want to be. I also understand that to live your life in an open and honest manner usually means being cast out from the "in" clique. I have spent my adult life searching for people worthy of my friendship, and have given up social acceptability to concentrate my energy on others who share my views. You must decide what you want, to play the game and sell a trumped up vision of yourself or to hold you head up and respect people who will take you for who you really are. It is not as easy as my pontificating makes it sound, to be a pariah is not a painless thing. I believe that a single true friend is worth any number of social clingers, you have to decide if you are willing to pay the price or not. My best wishes, -- ***dan {decwrl,pyramid,ames}!mips!djl djl@mips.com (No, Really! Trust Me.) Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!apple!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!crdgw1!sixhub!davidsen From: davidsen@sixhub.UUCP (Wm E. Davidsen Jr) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Dazed and Confused Message-ID: <387@sixhub.UUCP> Date: 9 Jan 90 00:29:05 GMT References: <7cfcohe01@ULKYVX.bitnet> Reply-To: davidsen@sixhub.UUCP (bill davidsen) Organization: *IX Public Access UNIX, Schenectady NY Lines: 29 In article <7cfcohe01@ULKYVX.bitnet> cfcohe01@ULKYVX.BITNET (Rose Delckum) writes: | "To the weirdos of the world--may we all do something, I | don't know what. I wish I could think of something profound, but | I'm not so good at that stuff. Anyhow, to quote a bumper | sticker--"Why be normal"? Or words to that effect." You, young lady, are a misfit and a non-conformist. You have never learned to fit in and not make waves. These are good qualities, one and all, and I have tried to instill them in my kids, as well. However, might you start taking a little more pride in it. Now that you've decided that you can't be like everyone else, and you are probably going to be a shock and disappointment to your family, why not decide what *you* want to do with your life, and not worry about other people's approval? Now is the time when you can do something to please yourself. Not a gesture of independece, or to shock someone, but just because you feel like it. Pick something that would give you please and DO it, even if it's so small that no one but you will ever know. It's your life, and no one is to blame if you don't live it to please yourself. -- bill davidsen - sysop *IX BBS and Public Access UNIX davidsen@sixhub.uucp ...!uunet!crdgw1!sixhub!davidsen "Getting old is bad, but it beats the hell out of the alternative" -anon Path: mit-eddie!wuarchive!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!crdgw1!sixhub!davidsen From: davidsen@sixhub.UUCP (Wm E. Davidsen Jr) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Dazed and Confused Message-ID: <387@sixhub.UUCP> Date: 9 Jan 90 00:29:05 GMT References: <7cfcohe01@ULKYVX.bitnet> Reply-To: davidsen@sixhub.UUCP (bill davidsen) Organization: *IX Public Access UNIX, Schenectady NY Lines: 29 In article <7cfcohe01@ULKYVX.bitnet> cfcohe01@ULKYVX.BITNET (Rose Delckum) writes: | "To the weirdos of the world--may we all do something, I | don't know what. I wish I could think of something profound, but | I'm not so good at that stuff. Anyhow, to quote a bumper | sticker--"Why be normal"? Or words to that effect." You, young lady, are a misfit and a non-conformist. You have never learned to fit in and not make waves. These are good qualities, one and all, and I have tried to instill them in my kids, as well. However, might you start taking a little more pride in it. Now that you've decided that you can't be like everyone else, and you are probably going to be a shock and disappointment to your family, why not decide what *you* want to do with your life, and not worry about other people's approval? Now is the time when you can do something to please yourself. Not a gesture of independece, or to shock someone, but just because you feel like it. Pick something that would give you please and DO it, even if it's so small that no one but you will ever know. It's your life, and no one is to blame if you don't live it to please yourself. -- bill davidsen - sysop *IX BBS and Public Access UNIX davidsen@sixhub.uucp ...!uunet!crdgw1!sixhub!davidsen "Getting old is bad, but it beats the hell out of the alternative" -anon Path: mit-eddie!mit-amt!snorkelwacker!apple!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!crdgw1!sixhub!davidsen From: davidsen@sixhub.UUCP (Wm E. Davidsen Jr) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Dazed and Confused Message-ID: <387@sixhub.UUCP> Date: 9 Jan 90 00:29:05 GMT References: <7cfcohe01@ULKYVX.bitnet> Reply-To: davidsen@sixhub.UUCP (bill davidsen) Organization: *IX Public Access UNIX, Schenectady NY Lines: 29 In article <7cfcohe01@ULKYVX.bitnet> cfcohe01@ULKYVX.BITNET (Rose Delckum) writes: | "To the weirdos of the world--may we all do something, I | don't know what. I wish I could think of something profound, but | I'm not so good at that stuff. Anyhow, to quote a bumper | sticker--"Why be normal"? Or words to that effect." You, young lady, are a misfit and a non-conformist. You have never learned to fit in and not make waves. These are good qualities, one and all, and I have tried to instill them in my kids, as well. However, might you start taking a little more pride in it. Now that you've decided that you can't be like everyone else, and you are probably going to be a shock and disappointment to your family, why not decide what *you* want to do with your life, and not worry about other people's approval? Now is the time when you can do something to please yourself. Not a gesture of independece, or to shock someone, but just because you feel like it. Pick something that would give you please and DO it, even if it's so small that no one but you will ever know. It's your life, and no one is to blame if you don't live it to please yourself. -- bill davidsen - sysop *IX BBS and Public Access UNIX davidsen@sixhub.uucp ...!uunet!crdgw1!sixhub!davidsen "Getting old is bad, but it beats the hell out of the alternative" -anon Path: mit-eddie!bbn!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!crdgw1!sixhub!davidsen From: davidsen@sixhub.UUCP (Wm E. Davidsen Jr) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Dazed and Confused Message-ID: <387@sixhub.UUCP> Date: 9 Jan 90 00:29:05 GMT References: <7cfcohe01@ULKYVX.bitnet> Reply-To: davidsen@sixhub.UUCP (bill davidsen) Organization: *IX Public Access UNIX, Schenectady NY Lines: 29 In article <7cfcohe01@ULKYVX.bitnet> cfcohe01@ULKYVX.BITNET (Rose Delckum) writes: | "To the weirdos of the world--may we all do something, I | don't know what. I wish I could think of something profound, but | I'm not so good at that stuff. Anyhow, to quote a bumper | sticker--"Why be normal"? Or words to that effect." You, young lady, are a misfit and a non-conformist. You have never learned to fit in and not make waves. These are good qualities, one and all, and I have tried to instill them in my kids, as well. However, might you start taking a little more pride in it. Now that you've decided that you can't be like everyone else, and you are probably going to be a shock and disappointment to your family, why not decide what *you* want to do with your life, and not worry about other people's approval? Now is the time when you can do something to please yourself. Not a gesture of independece, or to shock someone, but just because you feel like it. Pick something that would give you please and DO it, even if it's so small that no one but you will ever know. It's your life, and no one is to blame if you don't live it to please yourself. -- bill davidsen - sysop *IX BBS and Public Access UNIX davidsen@sixhub.uucp ...!uunet!crdgw1!sixhub!davidsen "Getting old is bad, but it beats the hell out of the alternative" -anon Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!apple!mips!excelan!crdgw1!sixhub!davidsen From: davidsen@sixhub.UUCP (Wm E. Davidsen Jr) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Panama Message-ID: <388@sixhub.UUCP> Date: 9 Jan 90 00:49:54 GMT References: <2883@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU> <1099@swbatl.UUCP> Reply-To: davidsen@sixhub.UUCP (bill davidsen) Distribution: alt Organization: *IX Public Access UNIX, Schenectady NY Lines: 29 Once upon a time there was a farmer. And that farmer had a house, and a shed, and silo, and a GREAT BIG BARN. Once day the farmer saw a RAT in his barn. He went and got some poison. The rate refused. He went and got a trap. The rat refused. Then the farmer sat down to talk to the rat. The rat was perfectly happy to talk, but all he did was to insult the farmer. The farmer offered to let the rat go free, and forgiven for the grain the rat had eaten, if only the rat would go away and leave the barn in peace. The rat just snarled and gave the farmer the finger. Er, paw. Finally the farmer got so frustrated that he came in one night and burned the barn down. Lots of innocent animals were hurt, and scared, and a few were killed. The wiley rat escaped. Then the farmer had to build the barn all over again. The new barn wasn't as nice as the old one, and the animals in the barn didn't trust the farmer not to burn their barn again. Even animals on other farms didn't trust the farmer, because they were afraid he might take exception to their rats, too. The farmers friends all stood around and said "why didn't you just shoot the rat, instead of burning the barn down?" -- bill davidsen - sysop *IX BBS and Public Access UNIX davidsen@sixhub.uucp ...!uunet!crdgw1!sixhub!davidsen "Getting old is bad, but it beats the hell out of the alternative" -anon Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!apple!mips!excelan!crdgw1!sixhub!davidsen From: davidsen@sixhub.UUCP (Wm E. Davidsen Jr) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Panama Message-ID: <389@sixhub.UUCP> Date: 9 Jan 90 00:58:00 GMT References: <2883@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU> <1099@swbatl.UUCP> Reply-To: davidsen@sixhub.UUCP (bill davidsen) Distribution: alt Organization: *IX Public Access UNIX, Schenectady NY Lines: 20 The tall bearded man came back in the door. "I forgot one thing," he said. "I've written a limerick!" With that he went back to the rest rooms, pencil in hand. Shortly he returned, smiling, and ordered a glass of plain tonic, having given up drinking, and sat on a stool leaning on the bar. Like all good bars, Calahan's supplies reading material on the walls over the plumbing. The latest addition said: This holiday I lacked ho, ho, ho. A'camping in Panama I did go. Two days before Chrisimus We invaded the ithimus I'd rather be home shoveling snow. -- bill davidsen - sysop *IX BBS and Public Access UNIX davidsen@sixhub.uucp ...!uunet!crdgw1!sixhub!davidsen "Getting old is bad, but it beats the hell out of the alternative" -anon Path: mit-eddie!mit-amt!snorkelwacker!apple!mips!excelan!crdgw1!sixhub!davidsen From: davidsen@sixhub.UUCP (Wm E. Davidsen Jr) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Panama Message-ID: <388@sixhub.UUCP> Date: 9 Jan 90 00:49:54 GMT References: <2883@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU> <1099@swbatl.UUCP> Reply-To: davidsen@sixhub.UUCP (bill davidsen) Distribution: alt Organization: *IX Public Access UNIX, Schenectady NY Lines: 29 Once upon a time there was a farmer. And that farmer had a house, and a shed, and silo, and a GREAT BIG BARN. Once day the farmer saw a RAT in his barn. He went and got some poison. The rate refused. He went and got a trap. The rat refused. Then the farmer sat down to talk to the rat. The rat was perfectly happy to talk, but all he did was to insult the farmer. The farmer offered to let the rat go free, and forgiven for the grain the rat had eaten, if only the rat would go away and leave the barn in peace. The rat just snarled and gave the farmer the finger. Er, paw. Finally the farmer got so frustrated that he came in one night and burned the barn down. Lots of innocent animals were hurt, and scared, and a few were killed. The wiley rat escaped. Then the farmer had to build the barn all over again. The new barn wasn't as nice as the old one, and the animals in the barn didn't trust the farmer not to burn their barn again. Even animals on other farms didn't trust the farmer, because they were afraid he might take exception to their rats, too. The farmers friends all stood around and said "why didn't you just shoot the rat, instead of burning the barn down?" -- bill davidsen - sysop *IX BBS and Public Access UNIX davidsen@sixhub.uucp ...!uunet!crdgw1!sixhub!davidsen "Getting old is bad, but it beats the hell out of the alternative" -anon Path: mit-eddie!mit-amt!snorkelwacker!apple!mips!excelan!crdgw1!sixhub!davidsen From: davidsen@sixhub.UUCP (Wm E. Davidsen Jr) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Panama Message-ID: <389@sixhub.UUCP> Date: 9 Jan 90 00:58:00 GMT References: <2883@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU> <1099@swbatl.UUCP> Reply-To: davidsen@sixhub.UUCP (bill davidsen) Distribution: alt Organization: *IX Public Access UNIX, Schenectady NY Lines: 20 The tall bearded man came back in the door. "I forgot one thing," he said. "I've written a limerick!" With that he went back to the rest rooms, pencil in hand. Shortly he returned, smiling, and ordered a glass of plain tonic, having given up drinking, and sat on a stool leaning on the bar. Like all good bars, Calahan's supplies reading material on the walls over the plumbing. The latest addition said: This holiday I lacked ho, ho, ho. A'camping in Panama I did go. Two days before Chrisimus We invaded the ithimus I'd rather be home shoveling snow. -- bill davidsen - sysop *IX BBS and Public Access UNIX davidsen@sixhub.uucp ...!uunet!crdgw1!sixhub!davidsen "Getting old is bad, but it beats the hell out of the alternative" -anon Path: mit-eddie!wuarchive!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!apple!mips!excelan!crdgw1!sixhub!davidsen From: davidsen@sixhub.UUCP (Wm E. Davidsen Jr) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Panama Message-ID: <388@sixhub.UUCP> Date: 9 Jan 90 00:49:54 GMT References: <2883@vu-vlsi.Villanova.EDU> <1099@swbatl.UUCP> Reply-To: davidsen@sixhub.UUCP (bill davidsen) Distribution: alt Organization: *IX Public Access UNIX, Schenectady NY Lines: 29 Once upon a time there was a farmer. And that farmer had a house, and a shed, and silo, and a GREAT BIG BARN. Once day the farmer saw a RAT in his barn. He went and got some poison. The rate refused. He went and got a trap. The rat refused. Then the farmer sat down to talk to the rat. The rat was perfectly happy to talk, but all he did was to insult the farmer. The farmer offered to let the rat go free, and forgiven for the grain the rat had eaten, if only the rat would go away and leave the barn in peace. The rat just snarled and gave the farmer the finger. Er, paw. Finally the farmer got so frustrated that he came in one night and burned the barn down. Lots of innocent animals were hurt, and scared, and a few were killed. The wiley rat escaped. Then the farmer had to build the barn all over again. The new barn wasn't as nice as the old one, and the animals in the barn didn't trust the farmer not to burn their barn again. Even animals on other farms didn't trust the farmer, because they were afraid he might take exception to their rats, too. The farmers friends all stood around and said "why didn't you just shoot the rat, instead of burning the barn down?" -- bill davidsen - sysop *IX BBS and Public Access UNIX davidsen@sixhub.uucp ...!uunet!crdgw1!sixhub!davidsen "Getting old is bad, but it beats the hell out of the alternative" -anon