Path: mit-eddie!mintaka!think!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!jarthur!estokien From: estokien@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Eric Stokien) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: The Woman Beside Message-ID: <3827@jarthur.Claremont.EDU> Date: 18 Jan 90 18:29:44 GMT References: <9001151717.AA03010@fsdcupt.csd.mot.COM> Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA 91711 Lines: 15 I can not agree that just because a woman has ambition and her own ideas, she can not be a companion to a man. It may be impossible in a college situation, when people are going to be going off to many different places and careers. But once a person is on their own and where they want to be, there will be others who may share the same dreams and interests in the area. Many men, myself included, want a woman with her own ideas and goals. I've never changed my path to follow a woman, and I'd never expect or even like a woman to follow me if it would be hurting her own ambitions. To put it terms of your metaphor, just because two people are on different horses, doesn't mean they can't hold hands. Relationships involve compromise, but that doesn't mean that they have to hold a person back, or be unwelcome, or even be non-mutual, relationships are simply sharing. A personal but not necessarily solo opinion from Eric Stokien Lover, Punster and Budding Astrophysicist Path: mit-eddie!mintaka!think!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!apple!bbn!granite!mandel From: mandel@granite.cr.bull.com (Mark Mandel) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: A lurker with a problem Message-ID: <1990Jan18.183705.22246@granite.cr.bull.com> Date: 18 Jan 90 18:37:05 GMT References: <20940028@hplred.HP.COM> <427@unicorn.WWU.EDU> Reply-To: mandel@granite.cr.bull.com (Mark Mandel) Organization: Bull HN Information Systems Inc. Lines: 24 Silverblack pushes his chair away from the table and stretches. "I would find it easier to feel your situation and try to think about it if I knew why you and your SO don't feel like getting formally married. Is it that you don't like having pieces of paper on file, with their resulting legal effects? Are you (either or both of you) allergic to the religious aspects of marriage that you were brought up with or exposed to, or perhaps to the states of some marriages you've seen? You may be able to find sympathetic clergyfolk, either of established or "alt." religions, who will marry you in a way that embodies your and Corey's sense of what you want your relationship to be. Such folk may also be willing to help with the legal side ("marriage" as defined by the state) and the contractual/practical side (your prospective employer's requirements." Silverblack looks down into his glass. "Just enough." Up to the chalk mark. "To your success, friend!" CRASH! -- -- Mark Mandel (InterNet: Mandel@granite.cr.bull.com) /* My employer is not responsible for anything I say, do, think, or eat. */ Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!think!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!image.soe.clarkson.edu!news From: stadnism@clutx.clarkson.edu (Steven Stadnicki,,,) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Saying stuff while I can (re: Empaths and lots of other stuff) Message-ID: <1990Jan18.192925.26315@sun.soe.clarkson.edu> Date: 18 Jan 90 19:29:25 GMT References: Sender: news@sun.soe.clarkson.edu Reply-To: stadnism@clutx.clarkson.edu Organization: Clarkson University, Potsdam, NY Lines: 46 From article , by gilly@bucsf.bu.edu (Gilly Rosenthol): [lost of stuff deleted] > Well, I care about all of you. But that doesn't mean I *understand* > all of you, or know how you feel. I care terribly about Jilara - but > I have had a very happy, innocent life. How can I possibly really > know how she feels? I am very happy to be friends with the Tabbifli - > but I can't know how it feels to have a family like hers. I can't > know how it feels to have a wife leave me, or a sister die. Is caring > enough? I don't know, but it's all I can do for now." Gilly shakes > her head ruefully. Gilly, you're almost right on this... not only is caring enough, caring is all that Is. At least, I hope so... as I put it (or will put it) to a friend who is going through troubled times, "I cannot imagine your situation... I can't understand it, so I can't help. All I can do is to be. I am always here if you need me. May that be enough..." And with that, I turn to face the room, adding: "and that quote holds for anyone here. I am ALWAYS (or very nearly) willing to talk, to help if I can, to simply be if I cannot. Sometimes, just knowing that there's someone out there helps a lot... you can try reaching me via: stadnism@clutx.clarkson.edu though I may not be here for long, depending on what happens (in part, what happens today. We'll see...) I would give a snail mail address, but I'm not certain of that, either... if I get one that I'm guaranteed of having for more than a week or two, I'll try and get that to the net. I'm not always great about writing back quickly, but I'll promise to try and get around to it..." I turn again to sit down, muttering "sigh... one of these days I'll get around to telling my problems..." Steven Stadnicki stadnism@clutx.clarkson.edu "The happy ending cannot come in the middle of the story." "But what if there isn't a happy ending?" "There are no happy endings... because nothing ever ends." > +--------------------+-------------------------------------------------------+ > | Gilly Rosenthol |"Don't dream it, be it" -The Rocky Horror Picture Show | > | gilly@bucsb.bu.edu |"On ne voit bien qu'avec le coeur. | > | | L'essentiel est invisible aux yeux." -Le Petit Prince | > +--------------------+-------------------------------------------------------+ Path: mit-eddie!mintaka!think!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!apple.com!zardoz From: zardoz@apple.com (The One Eyed Man) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: A lurker with a problem Message-ID: <6253@internal.Apple.COM> Date: 18 Jan 90 20:50:35 GMT Sender: usenet@Apple.COM Organization: Apple Computer, Inc. Lines: 117 References:<20940028@hplred.HP.COM> <427@unicorn.WWU.EDU> In article <427@unicorn.WWU.EDU> n8442349@unicorn.WWU.EDU (joy ralph m) writes: > The door opens somewhat slowly and a small centaur > steps somewhat hesitantly inside. She looks like what you > would have if you crossed a hobbit with an overfed Shetland > pony. She shakes the damp out of her chestnut hair and stops, > then with a look of resolution and hope on her face, she > clops over to the bar. "Bailey's and chocolate milk" she > says, laying a dollar on the countertop. Then taking a deep > breath, she steps forward. The One Eyed Man looks up from his table. "Now that's a horse of a different color," he says to no one in particular. [a Very Good Oppurtunity is presented to the little critter, but...] > > "I jumped at the chance. Even better, when I interviewed > for the position, they told me they prefered couples." She pauses > and drinks. "Now, I happen to have been involved in a relation- > ship for two years at the time of the interview, and we had been > living together for 4 months. We consider ourselves married, > though there are no papers on file anywhere to that effect. > I still remain somewhat naive, however, and so, when they asked > me if I was married, I chose honesty and answered that no, I > wasn't, but that I was part of a couple." She stops. The One Eyed Man nods, listening intently. > "Well, > you can guess the result. They hired the other guy who also > interviewed with them, despite the fact that I was better > qualified academically and in the other _stated_ areas of need." > > She takes another drink, and sighs. "Why am I telling > all of you patient people this somewhat grisly story? I talked > to my advisor again today, and she said that (surprise, surprise) > the position is open again because the man they hired left/didn't > work out. (I know him, and am not surprised. This is not personal > jealousy, either, as other people expressed surprise that he was > chosen over me, my advisor included.) BUT, she told me, they > won't consider me unless I am willing to live there alone or > unless my SO and I get married officially." She stops again, > and a look of anger flits across her face. "Now, she (my advisor) > told me that the owner of the funeral home had said that this > was because of their elderly and conservative clientel; that > apparently they were afraid that if word got out that they > employed a couple who were LIVING IN SIN (not her words) it > would be detrimental to business." "First thing to do," he says, "it take the big neon sign off of your forhead that says LIVING IN SIN. That might help. But remember also that funeral homes tend to cater to elderly personell, some of them dead. While the dead ones don't complain too much, their brothers, cousins, sisters, &c tend to be the ones who pay the bills, and they really don't want to offend those folks too much." > Her right forefoot begins to stamp lightly in agitation. > "I wasn't aware that living with someone was a condition that > made itself apparent merely through physical appearance. Or > perhaps I have an invisible sign on my forehead visible only > to elderly, conservative people. Considering the contact that > I would have with patrons of the home (very little), I don't > see that they would have the chance to find out, let alone > spread the word. We both wear rings on the appropriate fingers, > so, if called upon, we could present the illusion of being > married, if that truly was the problem." One last stamp, > rather loud. Mike frowns. "Sorry. Anyway, if that's their > attitude, there's not much it seems I can do about it. I'm > not willing to move out on Corey (my SO) if only because he > has been supporting _me_ through school for the last year, > and I'm not going to take this break if he can't share it. > And that doesn't even touch on the fact that he'd have a > problem with me living apart, anyway, he's pretty possessive > sometimes. I just needed to blow off some steam. Thanks for > listening." She finishes her drink. "To listening ears -- > all of them." __CRASH__ "Well," the One Eyed Man says, "what we have here is a clash of cultures. If the two of you consider yourselves married (in YOUR culture, that accounts for quite a bit), and have the appropriate commitments to each other, than that should be enough for anyone (in YOUR culture). But you are dealing with someone outside of your culture. And that seems to be the problem. My SO and are working (more like sliding, actually) together on our sixth year. Taxes, more than anything else, have kept us unmarried. Almost everyone we know thinks we ARE married, and in a cultural sense, we are. However, it sounds like the funeral home didn't want people who considered themselves married. They wanted people whom THEIR culture considered married. Sadly, this is where the cultures clash. A word of warning: I am NOT saying you should go out and get married. Then again, if you are already married, and their is not other overriding reason, why not get the papers and open a few more doors? BTW, in case you think I am being a bit hypocritical, let me eludicate my own situation a bit further. My SO is a Quaker, and we talked a long time (and still are talking) about the situation. The upshot is that we would be paying a sizable marriage tax, and we don't wish to contribute more to the guns-and-war types than we absolutely have to. In every other sense, we are married. As to your own problem, you need to decide. If you are married, then you don't need to tell people you aren't. If you aren't, then stick to your guns. As I remember some states you can be married by both of you simply stating (in public and on paper) that you are. So be careful if you aren't. ************************************* * When you do it to me, it's discrimination * When I do it to you, it's AA ************************************* -- These are my ideas. Oy vey, are they mine. -- zardoz Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!think!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!iuvax!pur-ee!sage.cc.purdue.edu!tey From: tey@sage.cc.purdue.edu Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: the lurker speaks Message-ID: <3445@sage.cc.purdue.edu> Date: 18 Jan 90 21:45:43 GMT Distribution: usa Organization: Lemming Beach Patrol Lines: 84 Once again, the door opens, and an auburn-haired man of moderate build and scruffy appearance enters. He kicks the snow off of what might have once been white canvas sneakers and orders a large tumbler of tequila from the bar. Mike eyes him for a moment, but several days of unshaven stubble allow him his refreshment. The stranger sips his drink, watching and listening and looking rather cold, despite his proximity to the fire. After several false starts, he finally steps up to the line...He has a pale complexion, short-cut, reddish-brown hair, and sad green eyes. He is about 5'9", slightly built(some might say skinny), but reasonably muscular. He introduces himself as 'Legion', and stares at his glass a moment before continuing. "A few previous articles have hit a bit close to home, which is why I've decided to finally come out of the woodwork and post my thoughts. I have a soul-mate...or rather, I _used_ to have one...I met her several years ago on the bus, coming home from high school one fall. Even though it was late October, I had never noticed her before; in fact, I wasn't even sure who she was when I met her...a girl sitting in front of my was wearing a black "Blues Brothers"-style porkpie hat, and at a sudden urge, picked it up and placed it on my own head. To this day, I donb't know what made me do that. She turned around, rather surprised, and we had a shrt conversation before I had to leave. "I was a junior and she was a freshman, although she was only a year younger than myself. Since her parents didn't want her out late on school nights, and I had only limited access(at best) to a car, we substituted walking and talking together after school for ordinary dating. In fact, our only 'real' date was to a friend's Halloween party. But this wasn't really what either of us wanted, and we broke up over Christmas break. "A year later, in the spring, she started showing up in places I frequented, and we flirted some. I was wary at first, but we soon started dating again. This time there was no denying it: We were in love. We felt totally at ease with each other. She was vibrant and outgoing, I was calm and reserved; when she felt stressed-out, I made her feel better; when I was depressed, she did the same for me. That summer, we gave each other the greatest gift we had: our virginity." He pauses a few seconds, blinking back tears of pain and joy and memory... "That fall, I went off to Purdue, while she remained in Louisville, 3 1/2 hours away, finishing high school. We never cried so much before the night I left. But we persevered...I came back whatever weekends I could, we stillfelt the same about each other, Christmas was hell(a story for another time), but we made it all the way back to summer, strong as ever. We even talked about seeing ourselves together, years from now...different in ways, but still with the same strange quirks we fell in love with. "Then came the fall, and I returned to college, while she began her senior year. Nothing seemed wrong, there were no bizarre omens, but somhow, during this past semester, we Changed. She felt ill-at-ease, and I've never been good with subtle hints, and we stopped communicating. Then, over Xmas break(again), we broke a second time. I have never seriously considered suicide an option(despite the opinion of others in the bar), but several times I felt the pain alone would stop my heart from beating. Sometimes I wished it would." He takes a final, long pull of the tequila to steel himself once more. "I do wish to remain friends with her, but perhaps for selfish reasons, as I intend to tell her when next I journey homeward. I really believe in wonderful, magical things; In unicorns and dragons, in dashing knights and fair maidens...and I believe in 'happily ever after'. I _don't_ believe something as wonderful as what we had can ever be turned away. We broke up once, and changed a great deal...Those changes allowed us to come together a second time. Perhaps it is time for us to change again. There is a bond between us which cannot be broken, and I believe it will someday blossom into something that legends are written of..." With this, he wipes his eyes on his sleeve and shouts "Here's to love; the most wonderful and horrible emotion yet known! Long may it wave!", and smashes his tumbler into the fireplace, where the shards reflect his sad green eyes awhile longer. "Don't be afraid of the dark/ * Only you hear the scream that you scream/ * tey@sage.cc.purdue.edu Don't turn away from the light/ * Legion Only you see the dream that you dream." * P. Townshend * I _am_ a snowball in hell Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!pt.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!haste+ From: haste+@andrew.cmu.edu (Dani Zweig) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: copyrights Message-ID: Date: 19 Jan 90 01:21:01 GMT Organization: Graduate School of Industrial Administration, Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA Lines: 14 Gilly Rosenthol: >...would make a great tall tale, but it's copyrighted. I'd say that the operative question, setting aside the letter of the law, is whether you're hurting the author. If what you want to post is a good story from a good book, you are probably benefiting the author by alerting people to the existence of that book. My own tendency is to be moderately sloppy about copyrights. If you want to be more cautious or conscientious, you can always *write* to the author and ask permission. --Dani Path: mit-eddie!mintaka!think!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!pyrdc!gmu90x!kaufman From: kaufman@gmu90x.gmu.edu (Ken Kaufman) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Belated New Years Resolutions Summary: Punny -- that's why it's here Message-ID: <2527@gmu90x.gmu.edu> Date: 17 Jan 90 18:04:47 GMT Reply-To: kaufman@gmu90x.UUCP (Ken Kaufman) Organization: George Mason University, Fairfax, Va. Lines: 13 One of these days, when conditions are right and I'm driving along and I see a sign that reads "SURVEY CREW AHEAD" (they're relatively common around here), I'll have the guts to slow down, roll down my window, spot a worker or two, shout out "No opinion!", and drive off. Last night in a store, I saw large jugs for donations. The jugs had a message which read something like "PLEASE SUPPORT EASTER SEALS". I will give serious consideration to getting myself an Exxon credit card, just so the next time I have the opportunity, I can rip it up and drop it in, thereby supporting the seals and other such creatures. To the Universe, may it continue to provide us with punny situations! ==Ken Path: mit-eddie!wuarchive!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!microsoft!peterdur From: peterdur@microsoft.UUCP (Janelle Durham c/o Peter Durham) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Answers, and more doubt... Message-ID: <10304@microsoft.UUCP> Date: 17 Jan 90 05:35:57 GMT References: <11698@csli.Stanford.EDU> Reply-To: peterdur@microsoft.UUCP (Janelle Durham c/o Peter Durham) Organization: Microsoft Corp., Redmond WA Lines: 68 Keywords: Janelle walks in from the gray day, orders a cup of tea, and walks over to chat with Chris, who's looking a little forlorn. In article <11698@csli.Stanford.EDU> cphoenix@csli.stanford.edu (Chris Phoenix) writes: >A quote from Steve: "There are always rules. They may just not be the ones > you're used to." >The reason I say we're incompatible is that she takes offense at a lot of >behavior that I consider normal > >I'm not sure why I'm saying all this. I can't imagine how you could help >unless you actually knew me, not just my typing. But if you have any >thoughts on anything I've said, I'd really like to hear them. I don't really have advice about this particular relationship, but I do have some thoughts about coping with people whose "rules" are incomprehensible to you: My sophomore year in college, I started out the year rooming with someone I had met my first day at Brandeis who had become the closest friend I'd ever had. But by November, we could hardly stand to be in the same room with each other, because there was so much anger between us. Our friendship was saved when she moved out of the room... although it never has recovered quite to its previous level. The reason? Different rules on what is normal, on what is personal space, etc. Personal space (as in a physical space to call my own) isn't that important to me, and it was very important to her, and I would do things that would greatly upset Barbara without even realiing that it was even vaguely possible that that would be the result. For example, one day I borrowed a shirt from her without specifically asking if that was OK. I had borrowed this shirt so many times that I figured it would be no problem to do so again... but she was very angry when she saw me later with it. Several things like this happened. I would have never done any of these things ahead of time if I'd realized it would upset her. But I honestly did not comprehend some of her rules for what was right/wrong because they were so different from mine. The way we got past this was to never share living space again. The only non-distancing way I can think of to work past similar problems would be to sit down for hours with someone, establishing rules of conduct, and to constantly add to those as things went along. This could help a relationship to grow, but I kind of suspect that it would hit the point that there were so many rules built up that there would be no ground for honest communication. Ina has apparently decided that your rules are so different from hers that there is no point in continuing to interact... and for you to push continued relations would only be a violoation of her rules... If she was being constantly offended by your actions, then it is probably a good thing she ended it when she did. Otherwise the anger would have continued to grow until both of you were miserable... I sigh wistfully, and go to collect my cup of tea from the bar where it has been peacefully brewing, and go sit down at an empty table, spreading applications around and preparing to fill them out. I am getting so tired of job hunting... I couldn't get a job in my field (where I have lots of experience) because I don't have a masters, so I'm applying for random jobs now to last me till next fall, and none of them want me either because I have one leg, and/or because I don't have any related experience (all that retail and restaurant experience I didn't get because I was working in social services...) UGGHH. Before I start filling things out, I glance over at Unbeliever. Yes, you can read _Callahans Lady_ before you read the others. Spider's books stand up pretty well on their own. I understand why you're having such trouble finding his books... I looked through twelve or so bookstores to find a copy of _Mindkiller_... course, I picked up an application at each before I left :-) - Janelle ...whistle while you write (the same damn things over and over!!) ... Path: mit-eddie!snorkelwacker!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!ucsd!ucsdhub!hp-sdd!hplabs!hpfcso!daq From: daq@hpfcso.HP.COM (Doug Quarnstrom) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Money and Materialism Message-ID: <9060009@hpfcso.HP.COM> Date: 17 Jan 90 03:51:39 GMT References: <12894@phoenix.Princeton.EDU> Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA Lines: 19 ---------- I agree with your post in most ways. Here are a few of my personal proverbs. Money cannot by happiness, but it is not a bad way to distract yourself from sadness. Money can't buy love, but who the hell needs love? Money can't buy friends, but rich people have friends too. Money isn't everything, but what is? Take my word for it. I have been poor, and I have been well off. Well off is much better. That is not to say I was unhappy when I was poor, but I am just as happy now, and I am alot more comfortable. Cynic Path: mit-eddie!mintaka!think!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!ucbvax!ucsd!ucsdhub!hp-sdd!hplabs!hpfcso!hpcndaw!hpcndm!jason From: jason@hpcndm.CND.HP.COM (Jason Zions) Newsgroups: alt.callahans Subject: Re: Would like a little advice from the bar ... Message-ID: <125990003@hpcndm.CND.HP.COM> Date: 17 Jan 90 21:25:43 GMT References: <6028@cps3xx.UUCP> Organization: HP Colorado Networks Division Lines: 42 Ah, Zach, laddie, yer aboot t'embark upon a strange and wonderous journey, full of new experiences and large expenses... :-) There are a few books on single-malt scotches; you might want to pop down to the local public library and check one out. Something I started doing about two years ago was throwing a scotch-tasting party; get together a bunch of single-malt drinkers and others, and have the serious tasters bring a bottle. I coordinated amongst the bringers to make sure we got no overlap. Laphroig (la froig') is considered another classic must-try. Most places carry the 10-year aged; I'm a bit more partial to the 15-year, as some additional complexity comes out and some of the sharpness of some of the flavors smooths out even more. I haven't yet been able to bring myself to pop for the 25-year stuff; they usually put it in a Wedgewood decanter and charge $300 US. Scandalous! Another classic is Glen Morangie (is the G hard or soft?). Quite tasty indeed; I find it less complex than the 'froggy, and subtly different from the 'fiddich. Cardhu, from the folks who bring you Johnny Walker (I think), is one easy way to start someone out on single-malts; the taste is mostly smoke. I guess. It's tough to explain tastes in words; witness the impenetrability of most wine reviews, or even (real) beer reviews. No vocabulary like that has grown up around scotch, which makes it even tougher. I'm partial to something called Sheep Dip (really!), but mostly because of the name. I think it's a bit less finished than most single malts, but the rawness and sense of undeveloped-ness (yech! why can't I speak english!) is nice in the appropriate mood. There's bunches more; as I said, try grabbing a book. Better yet, try finding a local bar which carries a few; spend some time there drinking a (small!) snifter of each, and taling with the barkeep. Any place that serves more than four single malts or so is likely to be the place where the staff knows something about the subject. Best of luck on your adventure! Jazz